Reopenings - the positive narrative the railway industry needs !

[yorksrob]

I suspect they wouldn't because the paths would end up quite close together, especially if you need to backfill the half of the Romsey Rounder you've split.

There's some peak extras but the off-peak services all go through. However direct peak services and an off-peak local service isn't the worst service in the world.

Would require battery units (or nicking a DMU from Salisbury for the shuttle) though.

Yes, it's a line with good potential however its served.

I hope it gets off the ground eventually.

 

[zwk500]

Yes, it's a line with good potential however its served.

I hope it gets off the ground eventually.

I do as well. I did a decent chunk of work for the RYR proposal, be nice if something did eventually come of it.

However, there were a wide range of issues that would need significant work to deal with and I suspect that the reopening on its own will struggle to justify the capital outlay required.

I suspect that the best opportunities for the branch will be aligned with when Eastleigh is resignalled to the ROC, so that the opportunity is taken to include Southampton platform 5 changes and the waterside branch (including its level crossings) for minimal marginal cost.

 

[stevieinselby]

The bit existing is not relevant, it's the scale of the gap to be filled that's important.

It's relevant in a couple of ways (which pull in opposite directions!).

On the plus side, the fact that there is track already in situ and in use for 2/3 of the route between Tavistock and Plymouth means that it is a better bet than the average rail proposal to connect a town to a city that's 15 miles away.

On the minus side, the track that is there is in no way adequate for the service that would be needed, with a 30mph linespeed for anything other than class 150 and 153 units, a passing loop that I don't think is in use, and currently using one-train-in-steam working north of St Budeaux junction – there would need to be significant work done to the existing line to prepare it for an hourly service to Tavistock, especially if Gunnislake is to retain a service and not be severed.

But I agree, the fact that there is a 6 mile gap at all means the prospects are not good.

 

[yorksrob]

I do as well. I did a decent chunk of work for the RYR proposal, be nice if something did eventually come of it.

However, there were a wide range of issues that would need significant work to deal with and I suspect that the reopening on its own will struggle to justify the capital outlay required.

I suspect that the best opportunities for the branch will be aligned with when Eastleigh is resignalled to the ROC, so that the opportunity is taken to include Southampton platform 5 changes and the waterside branch (including its level crossings) for minimal marginal cost.

We need a receptive political environment for these opportunities first and foremost as well.

What do politicians like (understandably) - success !!

That is why the success of the reopenings needs to be shouted - every time there's negative news about fares/HS2 etc. Reopenings provide good news.

 

[martin butler]

I think that future growth also needs to be included in the viability study of re opening closed, or non passenger lines, also exsisting lines will need to be upgraded, for example, the West of England line, needs to be fully doubled, and upgraded to match the line speed of the GW route,
if its to compete as an alternative route,

now lets take the possible expansion of Plymouth, out towards Tavistock, and possible post traffic growth beyond if say the remainder of the North dartmoor route were to re-open, again linking that part of Devon, with the rest of the network, then the entire route would have to be built as a fully double track railway engineered at a ine speed that is compatible to the existing line.

 

[yorksrob]

I think that future growth also needs to be included in the viability study of re opening closed, or non passenger lines, also exsisting lines will need to be upgraded, for example, the West of England line, needs to be fully doubled, and upgraded to match the line speed of the GW route,
if its to compete as an alternative route,

now lets take the possible expansion of Plymouth, out towards Tavistock, and possible post traffic growth beyond if say the remainder of the North dartmoor route were to re-open, again linking that part of Devon, with the rest of the network, then the entire route would have to be built as a fully double track railway engineered at a ine speed that is compatible to the existing line.

That assumes that new routes would feed the SWMain line - they could be operated as extensions of the GW main line !

But agree that there needs to be a decent amount of upgrading to the SW mainline from Basingstoke.

 

[zwk500]

We need a receptive political environment for these opportunities first and foremost as well.

What do politicians like (understandably) - success !!

That is why the success of the reopenings needs to be shouted - every time there's negative news about fares/HS2 etc. Reopenings provide good news.

Its also why it's important not to overblow cases but be realistic about scheme merits so that the genuine contenders get heard.

I think that future growth also needs to be included in the viability study of re opening closed, or non passenger lines, also exsisting lines will need to be upgraded, for example, the West of England line, needs to be fully doubled, and upgraded to match the line speed of the GW route,

All of that is included in the feasibility studies. They're rather detailed.

 

[The Ham]

That assumes that new routes would feed the SWMain line - they could be operated as extensions of the GW main line !

But agree that there needs to be a decent amount of upgrading to the SW mainline from Basingstoke.

The issue with the GWML option is there's not much scope to connect to London and either you're reversing at Exeter or missing Exeter (assuming you're coming in from that end, which would make the most sense) or you're not increasing capacity to Plymouth if you come in from the other end.

SWML had 8tph paths up for grabs post Crossrail 2 from Waterloo to places beyond Woking, so that's means that it's much easier connect to London.

Yes, it'll be quite expensive to redouble the WofE line, but it could be fairly useful in many ways.

For example, there's limited paths through Southampton and so a second Weymouth to Waterloo service could run via Yeovil. That could be formed of 5+5 units with half going to Plymouth and half to Weymouth.

To get a decent journey time to Waterloo it could be Yeovil, Salisbury, Woking, Waterloo.

For Weymouth, it would then call at Yeovil Pen Mill, Dorchester West and Weymouth to give it a fairly decent journey time.

For Plymouth, it'll call Crewkerne, Axminster, Honiton, Exeter Central, Exeter St David's, Crediton, Okehampton, Tavistock, Devonport and Plymouth.

At Exeter, I'd be tempted to run the all stops services from Plymouth to Crediton and from Barnstaple to Crediton where they then pair up calling at all stops to Exeter Central where they split with one portion calling at all stops to Exmouth and the other all stops to Axminster.

I'd also be tempted to extend the current WofE line service to Exeter to Barnstaple calling at Newton St Cyres, Crediton, Copplestone, Eggesford, Umberleigh and Barnstaple.

Likewise, I'd extend the Exeter semi fasts to Paignton calling at all stops.

That would give a lot of stops 2tph or better in and around Exeter, it would also increase the number of stations with direct access to a London and increase the number of services to London for some more.

 

[yorksrob]

The issue with the GWML option is there's not much scope to connect to London and either you're reversing at Exeter or missing Exeter (assuming you're coming in from that end, which would make the most sense) or you're not increasing capacity to Plymouth if you come in from the other end.

SWML had 8tph paths up for grabs post Crossrail 2 from Waterloo to places beyond Woking, so that's means that it's much easier connect to London.

Yes, it'll be quite expensive to redouble the WofE line, but it could be fairly useful in many ways.

For example, there's limited paths through Southampton and so a second Weymouth to Waterloo service could run via Yeovil. That could be formed of 5+5 units with half going to Plymouth and half to Weymouth.

To get a decent journey time to Waterloo it could be Yeovil, Salisbury, Woking, Waterloo.

For Weymouth, it would then call at Yeovil Pen Mill, Dorchester West and Weymouth to give it a fairly decent journey time.

For Plymouth, it'll call Crewkerne, Axminster, Honiton, Exeter Central, Exeter St David's, Crediton, Okehampton, Tavistock, Devonport and Plymouth.

At Exeter, I'd be tempted to run the all stops services from Plymouth to Crediton and from Barnstaple to Crediton where they then pair up calling at all stops to Exeter Central where they split with one portion calling at all stops to Exmouth and the other all stops to Axminster.

I'd also be tempted to extend the current WofE line service to Exeter to Barnstaple calling at Newton St Cyres, Crediton, Copplestone, Eggesford, Umberleigh and Barnstaple.

Likewise, I'd extend the Exeter semi fasts to Paignton calling at all stops.

That would give a lot of stops 2tph or better in and around Exeter, it would also increase the number of stations with direct access to a London and increase the number of services to London for some more.

Yes, there are a lot of benefits from a rejuvenated WoE main line with separated traffic flows.

There's surely also a case for reopening some of its branch lines. Seaton springs to mind, and turning Yeovil Junction into a North South interchange.

 

[Irascible]

Yes, there are a lot of benefits from a rejuvenated WoE main line with separated traffic flows.

There's surely also a case for reopening some of its branch lines. Seaton springs to mind, and turning Yeovil Junction into a North South interchange.

As a current resident, I have a few doubts . Aside from that the tramway is popular, and goes through a SSSI so good luck with rebuilding heavy rail through that, given the coast's WH status too. There's new housing on the comically now likely to flood area where the station was, so the line would have to terminate somwhere further west in the town ( see SSSI again ). As a remote dormitary for Exeter it'd benefit if there were through trains, I guess. A vaguely more likely reopening the Jct. as a very basic station that'd cut the current 20m+ bus connection to Axminster in half would make people in the lower Axe valley happier to use the train on a more regular basis - but this would also presumably need some redoubling first? I've no idea of the timetable constraints these days, I haven't used the line myself in a while. More reliability on the main line itself certainly wouldn't hurt in the slightest though. Whether you have to redouble the whole thing is something for the traffic modellers.

I'm in favour of new railways, but sometimes just facilitating new connections is enough. Doesn't make good headlines!

 

[Bald Rick]

We need a receptive political environment for these opportunities first and foremost as well.

It’s hard to see how the political environment for the Waterside line could be any better. Local politicians want it. The Rail Minister himself has even been out there, on a special train down the branch, saying how it woudl be great if s csse could be made.

Unfortunately, the simple fact of the matter is that it a csse could not be made, as it does not wash its face on a socio-economic basis.

I think that future growth also needs to be included in the viability study of re opening closed, or non passenger lines, also exsisting lines will need to be upgraded

Future growth is forecast and included in assessments of viability.

 

[yorksrob]

It’s hard to see how the political environment for the Waterside line could be any better. Local politicians want it. The Rail Minister himself has even been out there, on a special train down the branch, saying how it woudl be great if s csse could be made.

Unfortunately, the simple fact of the matter is that it a csse could not be made, as it does not wash its face on a socio-economic basis.




Future growth is forecast and included in assessments of viability.

Or possibly the calculation under-estimates the benefit to local communities.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jun 2026 ==

As a current resident, I have a few doubts . Aside from that the tramway is popular, and goes through a SSSI so good luck with rebuilding heavy rail through that, given the coast's WH status too. There's new housing on the comically now likely to flood area where the station was, so the line would have to terminate somwhere further west in the town ( see SSSI again ). As a remote dormitary for Exeter it'd benefit if there were through trains, I guess. A vaguely more likely reopening the Jct. as a very basic station that'd cut the current 20m+ bus connection to Axminster in half would make people in the lower Axe valley happier to use the train on a more regular basis - but this would also presumably need some redoubling first? I've no idea of the timetable constraints these days, I haven't used the line myself in a while. More reliability on the main line itself certainly wouldn't hurt in the slightest though. Whether you have to redouble the whole thing is something for the traffic modellers.

I'm in favour of new railways, but sometimes just facilitating new connections is enough. Doesn't make good headlines!

A 20 minute+ bus journey just to access train services must be very trying.

To be honest, I doubt that there's much difference in the impact on the natural environment between a holiday tramway or a traditional rail route. The big difference is that you get a full time useful transport connection.

I truth I'd like to see the Lyme Regis branch reopened, however I fear the station would be too remote from the coast.

 

[Bald Rick]

Or possibly the calculation under-estimates the benefit to local communities.

well, that is for the promoters of the project to provide. In my experience, promoters tend to overestimate benefot, snd significsntly underestimate cost.

 

[zwk500]

Unfortunately, the simple fact of the matter is that it a csse could not be made, as it does not wash its face on a socio-economic basis.

My understanding from the project team was that there was a socio-economic case, but the thing that really hurt it was the scale of work (cost) required for the signalling.
But I never saw the actual numbers and havent worked on it for some years now. So happy to be corrected.

 

[yorksrob]

My understanding from the project team was that there was a socio-economic case, but the thing that really hurt it was the scale of work (cost) required for the signalling.
But I never saw the actual numbers and havent worked on it for some years now. So happy to be corrected.

I wonder when the area is next due a re-signalling ?

 

[Bald Rick]

My understanding from the project team was that there was a socio-economic case, but the thing that really hurt it was the scale of work (cost) required for the signalling.
But I never saw the actual numbers and havent worked on it for some years now. So happy to be corrected.

AIUI the scale of the work needed bumped up the cost to the point where the case went red.

 

[Irascible]

A 20 minute+ bus journey just to access train services must be very trying.

To be honest, I doubt that there's much difference in the impact on the natural environment between a holiday tramway or a traditional rail route. The big difference is that you get a full time useful transport connection.

I truth I'd like to see the Lyme Regis branch reopened, however I fear the station would be too remote from the coast.

I don't get out much atm for various reasons, but I get the impression nobody uses it to do anything much more than go to Axminster, or occasionally when they're taking the train eastwards or on a trip past Exeter. Seaton to Exeter Science park is an hour on the X30 bus & then nearly half an hour more to get into Exeter bus station, so there's not actually much improvement needed to be competitive to the city centre. I'd imagine it's even worse for Lyme ( without looking at bus routes ) but it's rather smaller & doesn't have the extended catchement area. Sidmouth isn't an awful lot better ( albeit seems to have a different demographic ) but there's little you can probably do there.

The tramway has been occupying the old trackbed for 56 years now, well before current environment laws or world heritage status. I wonder what sort of gymnastics would be involved if they wanted to put it in there today. They don't have all that far to go if they wanted to reach the Jct. station

 

[yorksrob]

I don't get out much atm for various reasons, but I get the impression nobody uses it to do anything much more than go to Axminster, or occasionally when they're taking the train eastwards or on a trip past Exeter. Seaton to Exeter Science park is an hour on the X30 bus & then nearly half an hour more to get into Exeter bus station, so there's not actually much improvement needed to be competitive to the city centre. I'd imagine it's even worse for Lyme ( without looking at bus routes ) but it's rather smaller & doesn't have the extended catchement area. Sidmouth isn't an awful lot better ( albeit seems to have a different demographic ) but there's little you can probably do there.

The tramway has been occupying the old trackbed for 56 years now, well before current environment laws or world heritage status. I wonder what sort of gymnastics would be involved if they wanted to put it in there today. They don't have all that far to go if they wanted to reach the Jct. station

Perhaps they could run it as a public transport connection !

Alternatively, if the line were reopened, maybe the tram could be repatriated to Eastbourne.

 

[The Planner]

I wonder when the area is next due a re-signalling ?

If it was the branch resignalling that pushed the cost over the edge, and the lack of traffic its likely going to get in the future, you would probably rip as much out as possible when its due to be done, or just life extend for as long as possible. You are not going to enhance it if there is no case.

 

[InvernessTMD]

Central Scotland desperately needs a few re-openings. Grangemouth and Bonnybridge spring to mind. Grangemouth not having a station anymore is baffling - the area is home to 16,000 people and the nearest station is Polmont. Bonnybridge is more of a pet peeve. There's been many efforts to re-open the station with one getting within a hair of succeeding during summer last year. A station around the High Bonnybridge area wouldn't be particularly costly or difficult to construct considering the majority of the infrastructure is already present.

 

[JonathanH]

We need a receptive political environment for these opportunities first and foremost as well.

What do politicians like (understandably) - success !!

Reopenings aren't the be all and end all for politicians though. There are plenty of woeful service patterns on lines with plenty of custom where politicians would equally like to claim they have made a difference.

For example, the Dorking MP who wants a fast service to London on a two track railway with equally deserving stations on the way. Another example is Wokingham with its tedious slow service to London, that is again restricted by two track railway and a need to serve stations on the way, and ends up with people driving to Twyford.

The reality is that there will never be an intervention on either line that allows fast services. Is a reopening to Marchwood or Tavistock more deserving. Yes, because it isn't in the South East, but which affects more people?

 

[stevieinselby]

Reopenings aren't the be all and end all for politicians though. There are plenty of woeful service patterns on lines with plenty of custom where politicians would equally like to claim they have made a difference.

For example, the Dorking MP who wants a fast service to London on a two track railway with equally deserving stations on the way. Another example is Wokingham with its tedious slow service to London, that is again restricted by two track railway and a need to serve stations on the way, and ends up with people driving to Twyford.

The reality is that there will never be an intervention on either line that allows fast services. Is a reopening to Marchwood or Tavistock more deserving. Yes, because it isn't in the South East, but which affects more people?

I can imagine it would be harder for politicians to make it into a big news story if they're just tinkering with service patterns. The latest incarnation of the ECML timetable – while not without some compromises – has seen real improvements for many key journeys, and I don't think I've seen any publicity for it in the general media – unlike the new services along the Northumberland line and the planned new services to Portishead. Even adding new local stations doesn't get much attention outside the local area. So I can well understand why politicians would want to champion new lines involving physical infrastructure over managing service patterns or other lower profile changes.

There's also the question of what is in the art of the possible. Adding new fast services from Dorking or Wokingham to London would need either new passing loops to be built in an area where there is little scope to physically expand the footprint of the railway – or for other stations to see a reduction in services, in an area where rail usage is very high – so it's going to be hard to make that a priority

 

[martin butler]

If a passenger from say Wokingham wanted to travel to London, What's the journey time if they first went to reading, caught a fast from there? compared to catching a SWR waterloo service?

 

[JonathanH]

If a passenger from say Wokingham wanted to travel to London, What's the journey time if they first went to reading, caught a fast from there? compared to catching a SWR waterloo service?

10-15 minutes from Wokingham to Reading for frequent 25 minute journeys to Paddington. Compares with 75 minutes to Waterloo. More expensive to go via Reading.

 

[Sonic1234]

Often those settlements have grown *over* the trackbed.

Then undo it. Removing some 1960s boxes probably would improve the look of our towns. Too much is classed as impossible when it just needs a bit more political backbone.

A 20 minute+ bus journey just to access train services must be very trying.

Especially as the affordable way to travel is Advances, buses are unreliable and there is no leniency if a bus arrives late at the station. Maybe "my bus was late" should be a reason to get on the next train. Yes, it's hard if not impossible to prove and maybe 0.1% will abuse it. Whatever. It's not like guards check when you say my connecting train was late.

 

[WAO]

10-15 minutes from Wokingham to Reading for frequent 25 minute journeys to Paddington. Compares with 75 minutes to Waterloo. More expensive to go via Reading.

Depends where you are bound in London, as Paddington is quite far West and requires you to sample the joys of the Bakerloo line etc (and the EL to be fair). Waterloo can be much nearer useful places. There is also connection time at Reading (and Paddington) and the customary InterCity delays from the West. You also have to use the slow EL returning from Paddington on an OP ticket.

WAO

 

[SynthD]

And the fact that it’s been so popular means bums on seats.

Is there a measure that we can be objective about, or would the objectivity get in the way of indeterminate social benefits and the former levelling up policy. Pounds spent in construction per journey in the fifth year? Increased town visitors, or reduced NEETs as they go to Exeter for work?

Then undo it. Removing some 1960s boxes probably would improve the look of our towns. Too much is classed as impossible when it just needs a bit more political backbone.

If we can demolish homes to build rail lines, so many more possibilities open up that were previously ruled out. Though usually the villages that could build on the line had level crossings that can’t be reopened.

 

[quantinghome]

Reopening the Stillington line is probably the best shout on the UK network. We go on about Leeds and Sheffield having slow railway connections, but Tyneside-Teesside really is abysmal.

 

[Zomboid]

Reopening the Stillington line is probably the best shout on the UK network. We go on about Leeds and Sheffield having slow railway connections, but Tyneside-Teesside really is abysmal.

Don't know how much capacity the ECML has on that bit, but nowhere along the route would really justify a station so unless the line needs a huge signalling upgrade it should be relatively inexpensive. Perhaps a station at Ferryhill might be justifiable should the service get established. But even if it stopped everywhere it should be fairly quick.

Spoiler

Perhaps it could use battery fitted 350/2s

 

[Sonic1234]

level crossings that can’t be reopened.

Once again, lack of political will. You could have new level crossings, just like you could knock down 1960s post-Beeching estates. Maybe not within the current legal framework, but laws can be changed and adapted. That's not to say it's a good idea, but there is a debate about how much guidance, best practice and quangos should interfere or what their powers should be.

The ORR exists because of the will of Parliament, it is not a deity or supernatural force. It can have its wings clipped or be extinguished if the powers that be desired.