this is exactly why we need a "laugh react" button like they have on Facebook.....
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New Go-op train service between Swindon, Taunton and Weston-super-Mare approved by ORR - Access Rights now lapsed
- Thread starter realemil
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Will Go-Op go for rickshaws if their funders can’t afford buses?
Or just lend people a pair of shoes?
zwk500
Veteran Member
The directors will come and pick you up on a tandem e-bike
The London rickshaw trade is about to take a regulatory hit I understand, might be some going cheap?!The directors will come and pick you up on a tandem e-bike
TheLastMinute
Member
I've had a go at summarising the published phased plan. As no doubt Sir Humpergy would have said, it's extremely brave and ambitious. The fact that it lacks even an indictive timeline is somewhat telling.
Also, the ORR formally wrote to Go-op on 28 April to confirm that their track access contract had lapsed. I assume this means they would have to start the process all over again.
- Build four "charging hubs" (provisionally Worle, Taunton, Castle Cary and Frome) powered by renewable energy and balancing batteries built on railway land and existing car parking.
- Procure and operate a fleet of electric buses directly linking a number of Somerset towns with railway stations.
- Build a fleet of BEMU units converted from existing EMUs.
- Operate the BEMUs between Bristol Temple Meads and Westbury via Taunton (bypassing Weston-super-Mare). Use the charging hub infrastructure to charge both trains and buses.
- Secure external funding to build new stations and rail infrastructure. Extend to Swindon.
- Extend rail operation to branch line services, e.g. Yeovil, Minehead/WSR, and Shepton Mallet.
Also, the ORR formally wrote to Go-op on 28 April to confirm that their track access contract had lapsed. I assume this means they would have to start the process all over again.
43096
On Moderation
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- 18,722
It would seem Go-op have never heard of the phrase "when in a hole, stop digging". The whole thing is as dead as a dodo (or "dead as some doo-doos" as Baldrick might say).I've had a go at summarising the published phased plan. As no doubt Sir Humpergy would have said, it's extremely brave and ambitious. The fact that it lacks even an indictive timeline is somewhat telling.
- Build four "charging hubs" (provisionally Worle, Taunton, Castle Cary and Frome) powered by renewable energy and balancing batteries built on railway land and existing car parking.
- Procure and operate a fleet of electric buses directly linking a number of Somerset towns with railway stations.
- Build a fleet of BEMU units converted from existing EMUs.
- Operate the BEMUs between Bristol Temple Meads and Westbury via Taunton (bypassing Weston-super-Mare). Use the charging hub infrastructure to charge both trains and buses.
- Secure external funding to build new stations and rail infrastructure. Extend to Swindon.
- Extend rail operation to branch line services, e.g. Yeovil, Minehead/WSR, and Shepton Mallet.
Also, the ORR formally wrote to Go-op on 28 April to confirm that their track access contract had lapsed. I assume this means they would have to start the process all over again.
TheLastMinute
Member
It's possible that they could get some external funding to run a few inter-urban bus routes around Somerset, but everything else on their list (including the "charging hubs") is just pie in the sky.
Ashley Hill
Established Member
And I thought their rail plans were, ahem, ambitious! If they couldn’t raise the cash for a rail operation via external funding why do they think it would work for this?
Let's call it the A361 project then. That's the old main road that goes Taunton-Frome-Swindon-Banbury. On a summer Saturday it's an hour or more quicker between Taunton and Swindon than on the motorways. They can take their tandems that way. Getting by train from the West Country to Swindon, Oxford, Milton Keynes, Northamptonshire etc is a right tediousness.
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
Not the Goodies' trandem, then...?The directors will come and pick you up on a tandem e-bike
Annetts key
Established Member
If it's silly season already, how about road-rail Land Rover (or any equivalent)?
Farigiraf
Member
I'm guessing this is trying to imitate the successes of integrated rural transport networks elsewhere (Wales, Switzerland, plus the Peak District in a few years' time) but they really seem to be missing a few really quite important factors:I've had a go at summarising the published phased plan. As no doubt Sir Humpergy would have said, it's extremely brave and ambitious. The fact that it lacks even an indictive timeline is somewhat telling.
- Build four "charging hubs" (provisionally Worle, Taunton, Castle Cary and Frome) powered by renewable energy and balancing batteries built on railway land and existing car parking.
- Procure and operate a fleet of electric buses directly linking a number of Somerset towns with railway stations.
- Build a fleet of BEMU units converted from existing EMUs.
- Operate the BEMUs between Bristol Temple Meads and Westbury via Taunton (bypassing Weston-super-Mare). Use the charging hub infrastructure to charge both trains and buses.
- Secure external funding to build new stations and rail infrastructure. Extend to Swindon.
- Extend rail operation to branch line services, e.g. Yeovil, Minehead/WSR, and Shepton Mallet.
Also, the ORR formally wrote to Go-op on 28 April to confirm that their track access contract had lapsed. I assume this means they would have to start the process all over again.
- Railways have limited capacity, particularly Bristol-Exeter and the Berks & Hants
- GWR also exists, and the only way of making this work is working together with them (as well as local bus companies)
- There is no magical money tree in deepest Wessex.
I'm confident that this'll go nowhere - they'll probably do a few more press releases over the years to try and maintain publicity, but they still won't find the money for it anywhere.
What I do hope though is that the idea doesn't die out. A GBR Western division should definitely add this to the (incredibly long) list of great projects that are worth doing.
Obviously downscale a lot of the unnecessary bits (e.g. direct trains from everywhere to everywhere, and shared bus & rail charging stations), but the rest - i.e. better frequencies between Swindon and Westbury/Taunton, plus bus integration - would likely be decently successful.
Not sure what that is but it doesn't sound as if it will be very sympathetic to the Cotswold countryside!
At one point, the only way through this area was to come off the M5 and go through Cheltenham and the A435 to Cirencester. This was the typical route in the 80s, it sounds like traffic has vastly increased if they need a super-highway through the Cotswolds though where all extra the traffic has come from, I don't know.
brad465
Veteran Member
I've no doubt this proposal was well-intentioned, but has clearly not been fully thought through, and now has "project creep" written all over it.
43096
On Moderation
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It's a basket case of a project. There's far better things to spend taxpayers' cash on.
I tend to thinking along the same lines as Richard Bowker on this. There's an endless array of bad "good" ideas, just waiting for us to run out of sensible things to do
In the end they all just sap energy and goodwill, leaving people burned out. They stand in the way of actual achievable solutions that real councils and real bus companies could be talked into. They waste money on feasibility studies. Most of all they exhaust regulators, politicians and courts by tying them up in a relentless roundabout of applications, appeals and judicial reviews.
We need to stop pretending that everyone has a point worth listening to.
Tomos y Tanc
Member
- Joined
- 1 Jul 2019
- Messages
- 916
True, but I'm sure the people involved in this had the best of of intentions and sometimes, just sometimes, they are worth listening to.
TastyMaltesers
Member
I feel the rail aspect of their plan is dead in the water. Buses might work depending on how expensive the assets and infrastructure get (I have no idea about the costs of busses)
Indeed - the problem tends to be that too many people (when “speaking”) equate “listening” with “agreeing with me”. In this case - the idea was probably worth listening to but was probably allowed to rumble on for too long - especially as its various stages suggested that those responsible were /are more interested in making a point than actually serving a market. I’m basing that on the fact that the route to be served seems to have changed remarkably frequently - ie the emphasis is finding somewhere to launch a concept rather than finding a concept to serve an area.
About £300k each or thereabouts. Although they’d presumably lease them. It’d be the cost of the charging infrastructure that would be of greater concern!
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
They undoubtedly had/have the best of intentions, but that also needs to be accompanied with a firm grasp on reality if anything is to be achieved.
overthere 2
On Moderation
I've had a go at summarising the published phased plan. As no doubt Sir Humpergy would have said, it's extremely brave and ambitious. The fact that it lacks even an indictive timeline is somewhat telling.
- Build four "charging hubs" (provisionally Worle, Taunton, Castle Cary and Frome) powered by renewable energy and balancing batteries built on railway land and existing car parking.
- Procure and operate a fleet of electric buses directly linking a number of Somerset towns with railway stations.
- Build a fleet of BEMU units converted from existing EMUs.
- Operate the BEMUs between Bristol Temple Meads and Westbury via Taunton (bypassing Weston-super-Mare). Use the charging hub infrastructure to charge both trains and buses.
- Secure external funding to build new stations and rail infrastructure. Extend to Swindon.
- Extend rail operation to branch line services, e.g. Yeovil, Minehead/WSR, and Shepton Mallet.
Also, the ORR formally wrote to Go-op on 28 April to confirm that their track access contract had lapsed. I assume this means they would have to start the process all over again.
As I'm sure posters would have noticed I am a great supporter of Go-Op and really hoped they would succeed but if somebody had posted that they had heard a rumour that this was Go-Ops new plan I would say they were having a laugh.
I was going to post all the reasons why this is a a crazy idea but I'm not wasting hour's typing them all out.
The only crumb of comfort is they are now mentioning WSR (Minehead) and Shepton Mallet via - I assume the East Somerset railway? - though, I think I read somewhere that in the East the ESR railway is not physically connected to the network East of Cranmore at the quarry and in the West the nearest station to Shepton is Mendip Vale, which looking at Google maps seems to be a run round only with no car park so I would assume Cranmore would be the railhead?
The danger being that if you are going to drive all the way to Cranmore to get the train then why wouldn't you just drive to Castle Cary to get a mainline train or use the car for you're whole journey.
What Go-Op need to do is either go back too the original plan which they presented in late 2024 and add on Minehead and possibly Shepton Mallet services using standard unconverted to hybrid/battery 153s and working jointly with: WSR, GWR, XCountry, Butlins and the various local authorities in the region.
Or
If they cant raise the cash for that then start off smaller and simpler.
Get hold of a couple of 153s, again forget about electric/battery conversions. Some to run services and at least one spare, in case of breakdown or when they need servicing. Find a couple of near retirement/recently retired drivers and guards who want to earn a bit of pocket money but don't want to do full shifts so no training costs and then run morning and evening services between at least Minehed and Taunton and anywhere else that does not mean they have to pay for infrastructure, level crossings etc and again work in conjunction with WSR, GWR, XCountry, Butlins and the various local authorities.
What it would allow them to do is show they can run a basic service and then investors are more likely to invest and then they can build up to there original plans and then see where they can go from there.
Two questions I have about the track access:
1 - If Go-Op were miraculously to find the cash to do their original plan "today" how long would it take for them to go through the whole process again to get a fresh track access contract to be able to run trains?
2 - If Go-Op were to do a basic shuttle just between Minehead and Taunton as described above with ex-proper mainline trained staff is there a way that a new track access contract could be issued with less demands/hoops to jump through which would equal less cost and a quicker start?
Again though, the back office and logistical costs of being a functional TOC - even just with a couple of 153s and occasional services - are huge! You can’t just pitch up with a couple of units and a motley crew of retirees and crack on. Ultimately Go Op have a dream which exists only in an alternative reality, and just isn’t going to cut it on today’s railway. Ironically, given their latest round of ‘plans’, their best avenue by a long way might be to scrap the pipe dreams of operating a railway and turn their attention to some local bus operations, which would at least give them some tangible experience in a far more manageable arena.
Elecman
Established Member
Those already exist and are used in Scotland and elsewhere by NRIf it's silly season already, how about road-rail Land Rover (or any equivalent)?
Annetts key
Established Member
I've been in one in Network Rail service for engineering work.
swt_passenger
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 7 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 34,227
I never once saw any details of how they would employ and train drivers, guards and supervisory staff, HR & payroll, and as for depot maintenance of rolling stock, with competent depot staff, a safety regime acceptable to the authorities, nothing seems publicised either. I cannot assume GWR would have helped them in any meaningful way, so just how was it going to work?
It’s no surprise active OA operators are usually offshoots of big name transport operators. Didn’t GC originally try to stand alone, but were quickly subsumed by a much bigger company?
TheLastMinute
Member
OK, just for fun(!), let's do a quick "back of a fag packet " calculation of the staff costs for running a twice weekday service from Minehead to Taunton and return, one morning peak and one evening peak.
To run this service, at least six jobs need to be performed; driver, guard and 4 signallers for Minehead, Blue Anchor, Williton, and Bishops Lydeard boxes. The end-to-end journey time looks to be about 1:40, so let's say each shift is on average 4 hours giving a total of 48 hours to be paid each operating day.
As this is the “best case”, let’s assume that all staff are on the legal minimum National Living Wage rate of £12.71 per hour. Adding in a 20% overhead to cover Employer NI, pension contribution and payroll costs, that would give a daily payroll cost of £732, or £3,660 per week or £183,000 per year (based on 50 operating weeks for simplicity).
Now, let’s consider holiday and sickness. Each staff member would get a legal minimum of 20 days leave (they get bank holidays off), so that 240 shifts that need a holiday relief. Assume a 1.5% sickness rate, rounding to further 65 shifts to be covered, the annual relief staff cost is £20,477 (including their annual leave).
The total for the year is now £203,477 for the year. Breaking that down, that's £813.91 for each operating day. Assuming is the cost of a return ticket is £10 (for comparison, the bus is £6 return with a roughly equal journey time), it would need 82 return tickets to be sold every day just to cover these unrealistic direct staff costs, and that's without the indirect costs such as training, competency management, line management, HR, and recruitment. And we've not even touched on the other business costs e.g. rolling stock, cleaning, retail, advertising, tax, infrastructure costs, rent, IT, legal, insurance, maintenance and on and on and on.
In short, running a railway service is very expensive. There are very, very, good reasons why the West Somerset Railway don’t run this service already, despite having the operational and infrastructure organisation that could easily support it.