Reopenings - the positive narrative the railway industry needs !

[zwk500]

Ultimately the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

If by this you mean 'the crying child gets the milk', then railways are far from the loudest cry/squeak

 

[yorksrob]

If by this you mean 'the crying child gets the milk', then railways are far from the loudest cry/squeak

The railway could be the most efficient, cost streamlined service of the year.

Would government reward it and say "you've done well, we won't be so harsh on you next year" ?

Of course not. They'll be asked to save twice as much.

If other wheels are squeaking, the railway needs to squeak more loudly, not less.

(I work for a section of the public sector that's been dutifully swallowing funding cuts and balancing its budgets for twenty years. It's only ever led to tighter budgets).

 

[zwk500]

The railway could be the most efficient, cost streamlined service of the year.

Would government reward it and say "you've done well, we won't be so harsh on you next year" ?

Of course not. They'll be asked to save twice as much.

If other wheels are squeaking, the railway needs to squeak more loudly, not less.

(I work for a section of the public sector that's been dutifully swallowing funding cuts and balancing its budgets for twenty years. It's only ever led to tighter budgets).

I don't disagree with your analysis. I have had enough experience of the public sector budget psyche of 'use it or lose it'.

However, I do question if the railway is best served by simply shouting louder to get more lines that require subsidy to operate. If anything the railway need to reduce it's dependence on public money, not simply bully out other areas for what the government is willing to spend.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't disagree with your analysis. I have had enough experience of the public sector budget psyche of 'use it or lose it'.

However, I do question if the railway is best served by simply shouting louder to get more lines that require subsidy to operate. If anything the railway need to reduce it's dependence on public money, not simply bully out other areas for what the government is willing to spend.

Politically I think the railway needs to get more bums on seats. The more indispensable it is, the more difficult it is for Governments to start cutting things.

 

[zwk500]

Politically I think the railway needs to get more bums on seats. The more indispensable it is, the more difficult it is for Governments to start cutting things.

It's got plenty of empty seats running around now. It should focus on that, IMO.

 

[SynthD]

Pound for pound, that would mean HS2 east and Crossrail 2 at the expense of anything south west of Bristol. Much of the inefficiency of spending is spreading the benefit to all, even if they are rural people with cars. Urban reopenings, which may include Portishead, would be the focus.

 

[yorksrob]

It's got plenty of empty seats running around now. It should focus on that, IMO.

Making it over fifty quid for a day trip from Leeds to Whitby is an example of there being lots of capacity yet little effort to fill it. There's one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2026 ==

Pound for pound, that would mean HS2 east and Crossrail 2 at the expense of anything south west of Bristol. Much of the inefficiency of spending is spreading the benefit to all, even if they are rural people with cars. Urban reopenings, which may include Portishead, would be the focus.

Okehampton isn't exactly urban, yet its reopening has been a resounding success. I'd say there's probably more societal benefit to improving public transport to somewhere where there currently isn't much, compared to somewhere that already has lots of good transport options.

 

[The exile]

Making it over fifty quid for a day trip from Leeds to Whitby is an example of there being lots of capacity yet little effort to fill it. There's one.

The problem is that using fares as a way of filling empty seats on certain flows (without causing crush-loading where there are already few or no empty seats) inevitably introduces more fare complexity / imbalance when the clamour is that they are too complex already. It can be done with advances (which in many ways are the most complex of the lot) but that’s only going to nibble away at the edges on shorter-distance flows.

 

[yorksrob]

The problem is that using fares as a way of filling empty seats on certain flows (without causing crush-loading where there are already few or no empty seats) inevitably introduces more fare complexity / imbalance when the clamour is that they are too complex already. It can be done with advances (which in many ways are the most complex of the lot) but that’s only going to nibble away at the edges on shorter-distance flows.

Often it wouldn't though. In my Whitby example, offering a cheap day return at less than the period one would solve the issue.

Infact in a lot of places, having peak, off-peak, day and period returns would solve a lot of these issues.

 

[The exile]

Often it wouldn't though. In my Whitby example, offering a cheap day return at less than the period one would solve the issue.

Infact in a lot of places, having peak, off-peak, day and period returns would solve a lot of these issues.

But are there loads of empty seats on the Leeds - York - Middiesborough leg(s) at the sort of time needed for a viable day trip to Whitby?

 

[yorksrob]

But are there loads of empty seats on the Leeds - York - Middiesborough leg(s) at the sort of time needed for a viable day trip to Whitby?

Yes, there absolutely are - especially on a weekday when I often go.

Far emptier than the Middlesbrough Whitby section.

(For background, those trains have to be quite long for the Manchester - Leeds market).

 

[SynthD]

Okehampton isn't exactly urban, yet its reopening has been a resounding success. I'd say there's probably more societal benefit to improving public transport to somewhere where there currently isn't much, compared to somewhere that already has lots of good transport options.

Okehampton wasn’t exactly a reopening.

Aiming for the societal benefit is an exact opposite of bums on seats. Declaring both ends of the scale to be what the government should do next is confusing, it could be the next political policy.

 

[The exile]

Yes, there absolutely are - especially on a weekday when I often go.

Far emptier than the Middlesbrough Whitby section.

(For background, those trains have to be quite long for the Manchester - Leeds market).

Fair enough.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2026 ==

Okehampton wasn’t exactly a reopening.

Aiming for the societal benefit is an exact opposite of bums on seats. Declaring both ends of the scale to be what the government should do next is confusing, it could be the next political policy.

It was closed to regular passenger services in 1960-something. It is now open to regular passenger services. So what happened when that changed other than a re-opening?

 

[yorksrob]

Okehampton wasn’t exactly a reopening.

Aiming for the societal benefit is an exact opposite of bums on seats. Declaring both ends of the scale to be what the government should do next is confusing, it could be the next political policy.

It is absolutely a re-opening. And the fact that its been so popular means bums on seats.

 

[zwk500]

It is absolutely a re-opening. And the fact that its been so popular means bums on seats.

The service had never properly gone away, but I will agree it's a reopening by any meaningful measure.

However, I'd question if it's been an "outstanding" success given that after the first 3 or 4 quarters, journey numbers have been slightly below the projections (although showing steady growth). It's definitely been successful (including covering it's immediate costs of operation, huge plus points for that), but I'm not sure it's one to point to for justification of anything that requires more than basically a heavy track renewal and some driver training.

Comparison of actual and forecast passenger demand (as contained in the business case for the Line) on the Dartmoor Line shows that the forecasts under-estimated demand the first 2 full years of the Line’s operation with total demand 47% higher than forecast over this period. However, since November 2023 actual demand by period has typically been marginally lower than forecast. The large variance in the first two years is primarily due to the forecasting methodology assuming more conservative demand ramp-up factors.

An assessment of operating costs and revenue generated in 2023/24 indicates that the Dartmoor Line is creating an estimated annual operating surplus of around £0.85m implying there is no subsidy requirement. However, whilst this provides an early indication of the financial sustainability of the Line, there are significant caveats to this conclusion. These include the analysis being based on a single year and uncertainty around certain costs some of which may increase significantly in future e.g. rolling stock lease costs

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/68d119dce65dc716bfb1dbbc/dartmoor-line-early-impact-evaluation.pdf

 

[yorksrob]

The service had never properly gone away, but I will agree it's a reopening by any meaningful measure.

However, I'd question if it's been an "outstanding" success given that after the first 3 or 4 quarters, journey numbers have been slightly below the projections (although showing steady growth). It's definitely been successful (including covering it's immediate costs of operation, huge plus points for that), but I'm not sure it's one to point to for justification of anything that requires more than basically a heavy track renewal and some driver training.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/68d119dce65dc716bfb1dbbc/dartmoor-line-early-impact-evaluation.pdf

The parkway station may provide a further boost. It certainly makes the case for joining towns to the network such as Wisbech and Tavistock where there is a relatively short missing link.

To take Tavistock, the missing section is lifted, but overall a greater proportion is already passenger standard railway.

 

[zwk500]

The parkway station may provide a further boost.

Yes. I hope it does continue to grow.

It certainly makes the case for joining towns to the network such as Wisbech and Tavistock where there is a relatively short missing link.

Disagree. It helps the case for proposals like the Waterside Line or Burton-Leicester where the line is already there and usable, and there is a clear economic link to be created between town and city.

To take Tavistock, the missing section is lifted, but overall a greater proportion is already passenger standard railway.

The bit existing is not relevant, it's the scale of the gap to be filled that's important.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes. I hope it does continue to grow.

Disagree. It helps the case for proposals like the Waterside Line or Burton-Leicester where the line is already there and usable, and there is a clear economic link to be created between town and city.

The bit existing is not relevant, it's the scale of the gap to be filled that's important.

You can take it in two ways - reinstating existing freight routes for passenger (Wisbech is one as well, albeit in poor condition).

However, Tavistock also benefits from the aspect of linking a reasonable sized town to its nearest city.

The bit existing is highly relevant - it's a bit of the route already up to passenger standard. Similarly, the funding for Okehampton wiuld have been more difficult had the Yeoford - Cowley junction section not already been in passenger use.

 

[Zomboid]

Wisbech and Tavistock (and many others) are more along the lines of Leven and Portishead. How good the modelling there is will inform how reliable the models for other similar rebuilds might be.

The lack of anything on the Waterside line is a bit surprising, there's enough population down there that I'd expect a service would be able to wash it's face, but maybe not.

 

[zwk500]

The lack of anything on the Waterside line is a bit surprising, there's enough population down there that I'd expect a service would be able to wash it's face, but maybe not.

There's been an Restoring Your Railways and an Open Access Application for it, it's not for want of trying...

Waterside line's perennial problem is capacity at Southampton Central, and level crossing upgrades

 

[HSTEd]

I don't think a rail reopening of tavistock is particularly attractive, its a very slow railway.

It's so slow that a ropeway from Saltash would reach Tavistock (going via all stations from Bere Ferrers onwards) in about the same time the train travels from St Budeaux Victoria Road to Gunnislake. We could debate if Saltash would be the best place, but it still makes the argument.

Many of these branch lines exist because they have always existed, but that does not mean they are anyting close to the optimal, and blindly extending them is also not sensible.

 

[WAO]

I would classify re-openings into three;

(a) the addition of a new service along existing (largely) passenger routes, such as provided by open access operators. These seem to fill gaps as much as abstract custom, although if they grow the market...and passenger miles within existing track miles....

(b) where an existing route is upgraded to take a passenger service such as Okehampton or Portishead. These are taking place slowly but steadily.

(c) where some new track is laid/reinstated to take passenger stock, such as Tavistock (where the LA's argument against a poor present BCR is growth potential).

I think there is room for more under (a) above, such as a semi/fast services from Manchester to the coast. 71 minutes for the 33 miles to Southport (pop 94 000) must have JAF Aspinall rotating above maximum safe armature speed in his grave. The present "all stations" railway has probably eaten up the paths.

Re-openings under (c) would be difficult at present NR costs and methods. By requiring subsidy they would always be a nuisance to the National Railway. They really overlap in type with heritage lines.

WAO

 

[yorksrob]

Wisbech and Tavistock (and many others) are more along the lines of Leven and Portishead. How good the modelling there is will inform how reliable the models for other similar rebuilds might be.

The lack of anything on the Waterside line is a bit surprising, there's enough population down there that I'd expect a service would be able to wash it's face, but maybe not.

There's been an Restoring Your Railways and an Open Access Application for it, it's not for want of trying...

Waterside line's perennial problem is capacity at Southampton Central, and level crossing upgrades

Wasn't the latest Waterside line proposal kyboshed by the ORR ? (Too busy worrying about drop-lights and the third rail presumably).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2026 ==

I don't think a rail reopening of tavistock is particularly attractive, its a very slow railway.

It's so slow that a ropeway from Saltash would reach Tavistock (going via all stations from Bere Ferrers onwards) in about the same time the train travels from St Budeaux Victoria Road to Gunnislake. We could debate if Saltash would be the best place, but it still makes the argument.

Many of these branch lines exist because they have always existed, but that does not mean they are anyting close to the optimal, and blindly extending them is also not sensible.

The Tavistock line is about as slow as it can be, bearing in mind there are no trains.

Tavistock is potentially better than a lot in that the track bed goes right to the centre of town.

I contest that a slightly winding, sub-optimal railway to a town might seem not sensible to railway professionals, but to residents of said town, it will be far less sub-optimal than no railway at all.

 

[Zomboid]

Wasn't the latest Waterside line proposal kyboshed by the ORR ? (Too busy worrying about drop-lights and the third rail presumably

That wasn't a huge shock, it was 90% abstraction and 10% Marchwood.

 

[zwk500]

Wasn't the latest Waterside line proposal kyboshed by the ORR ? (Too busy worrying about drop-lights and the third rail presumably).

The ORR's concerns were actually about the quality of the timetable and the impact on the DfT revenue being abstracted. The proposal was to use Class 769 units so no new third rail and no window-hanging.

 

[yorksrob]

That wasn't a huge shock, it was 90% abstraction and 10% Marchwood.

The ORR's concerns were actually about the quality of the timetable and the impact on the DfT revenue being abstracted. The proposal was to use Class 769 units so no new third rail and no window-hanging.

Personally I think a good option for that one would be to extend the Brighton Coastway that currently terminates at Southampton. That would require electrification though.

 

[Zomboid]

Personally I think a good option for that one would be to extend the Brighton Coastway that currently terminates at Southampton. That would require electrification though.

I'd serve it with the Chandlers Ford train if it made any sense to do so, personally.

 

[zwk500]

Personally I think a good option for that one would be to extend the Brighton Coastway that currently terminates at Southampton. That would require electrification though.

The best option would be a London service. The next best option is to run a shuttle service that can give a good timed connection from Platform 5 into or out of the London Service.

 

[yorksrob]

I'd serve it with the Chandlers Ford train if it made any sense to do so, personally.

Both together would give a decent frequency.

The best option would be a London service. The next best option is to run a shuttle service that can give a good timed connection from Platform 5 into or out of the London Service.

Are there any semi-fasts from London that terminate there, or do they all go to Bournemouth ? Handy to extend something that's already terminating.

 

[zwk500]

Both together would give a decent frequency.

I suspect they wouldn't because the paths would end up quite close together, especially if you need to backfill the half of the Romsey Rounder you've split.

Are there any semi-fasts from London that terminate there, or do they all go to Bournemouth ? Handy to extend something that's already terminating.

There's some peak extras but the off-peak services all go through. However direct peak services and an off-peak local service isn't the worst service in the world.

Would require battery units (or nicking a DMU from Salisbury for the shuttle) though.