222 contract for Scotrail: updates (not speculation)

[BorderCollie]

If the Greens gain power at Holyrood as some sort of coalition partner, they are vowing to rid ScotRail of first class....

 

[RiverDon]

Em how? Will they not keep one and a half first class carriages as they are now?

There is a document floating about with detailed seating plans (and other info) but I can't post it here.

 

[hexagon789]

Seems to me to make sense to lose 2 first calssseat in the interests of betetr layouy and potentailly improved disability space. I can't see that there would have been much logic in keeping the composite layout - unless of course demand for 1st class required it in Scotland.
If there is increased demand overall - including 1st and Std - then perhaps there would have been spare vehicles from another set to lengthen a few of the sets to 6 cars (I seem to recall upthread mention that not all of the 22s would end up with Lumo or scotrail).

One First Class coach is sufficient, especially as the 222s will have fewer seats than the 5-car HSTs in Std and only slightly more than a 4-car.

 

[AMD]

If the Greens gain power at Holyrood as some sort of coalition partner, they are vowing to rid ScotRail of first class....

Until such time as someone shows them the yield from first class on the long distance workings - there is a large uptake from tourists, particularly on the Edinburgh to Inverness route.

 

[WesternLancer]

Until such time as someone shows them the yield from first class on the long distance workings - there is a large uptake from tourists, particularly on the Edinburgh to Inverness route.

Indeed - but you can never let the practicalities get in the way of ideology.

I never really understand this sort of thing - I assume those Green MSPs would never eat in a restaurant that was more expensive then the basic restaurant available for example - and will ban the existence of more expensive restaurants too.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Indeed - but you can never let the practicalities get in the way of ideology.

I never really understand this sort of thing - I assume those Green MSPs would never eat in a restaurant that was more expensive then the basic restaurant available for example - and will ban the existence of more expensive restaurants too.

I wonder if those Greens have ever read Animal Farm ?

 

[WesternLancer]

I wonder if those Greens have ever read Animal Farm ?

Hmmm....
Question well put.

 

[RiverDon]

If the Greens gain power at Holyrood as some sort of coalition partner, they are vowing to rid ScotRail of first class....

There's already a thread for discussing this stupid proposal in the speculation bit of the forums.

 

[jh64]

Indeed - but you can never let the practicalities get in the way of ideology.

I never really understand this sort of thing - I assume those Green MSPs would never eat in a restaurant that was more expensive then the basic restaurant available for example - and will ban the existence of more expensive restaurants too.

There's a bit of a difference between the best use of limited capacity on publicly-funded transport and deciding which restaurant to choose to eat at, which would be readily apparent with about three minutes of concentrated thought.

 

[WesternLancer]

There's a bit of a difference between the best use of limited capacity on publicly-funded transport and deciding which restaurant to choose to eat at, which would be readily apparent with about three minutes of concentrated thought.

But I don't believe this drives the point of view of people who propose it - (abolishing first class). That's my personal opinion (based on knowing a number of such people)

 

[ainsworth74]

I think it might be time to take any further comments regarding the Greens proposal to abolish first class on Scotrail to the dedicated thread which can be found here.

 

[liamf656]

Realtime Trains | 7Q22 0740 Derby Litchurch Lane to Widnes Transport Tech | 19/06/2026

Real-time train running information for 7Q22 0740 departure from Derby Litchurch Lane to Widnes Transport Tech on 19/06/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Two 43s dragging what I believe to be 222005. A mate of mine is going out to get photos as it passes back through Derby

(edit: posted here thinking it was one of tbe Scotrail units but its for Lumo)

 

[LA50041]

Realtime Trains | 7Q22 0740 Derby Litchurch Lane to Widnes Transport Tech | 19/06/2026

Real-time train running information for 7Q22 0740 departure from Derby Litchurch Lane to Widnes Transport Tech on 19/06/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Two 43s dragging what I believe to be 222104. A mate of mine is going out to get photos as it passes back through Derby

TOPS showing 222005 hauled by 43423/43467

 

[Amos390]

Realtime Trains | 7Q22 0740 Derby Litchurch Lane to Widnes Transport Tech | 19/06/2026

Real-time train running information for 7Q22 0740 departure from Derby Litchurch Lane to Widnes Transport Tech on 19/06/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Two 43s dragging what I believe to be 222005. A mate of mine is going out to get photos as it passes back through Derby

(edit: posted here thinking it was one of tbe Scotrail units but its for Lumo)

TOPS showing 222005 hauled by 43423/43467

Can confirm it is 222005 now, has been reformed into 6 cars in Litchurch as well.

 

[BorderCollie]

That's the last one for Lumo - not ScotRail?

 

[Amos390]

That's the last one for Lumo - not ScotRail?

Yes it is, 001-005 for Lumo and the rest for ScotRail. Only one that’s stopped service for ScotRail transition is 104, which is undergoing deep level maintenance at the moment.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Curious that there's reference to 222005 being dragged.
A week or so ago I saw it pass through Northampton (obviously on its own power) on the up middle road in the late afternoon on the usual training run (though booked Old Line - possibly diverted for route knowledge).

 

[Amos390]

Curious that there's reference to 222005 being dragged.
A week or so ago I saw it pass through Northampton (obviously on its own power) on the up middle road in the late afternoon on the usual training run (though booked Old Line - possibly diverted for route knowledge).

Yeah, it seems that in the last few weeks they took it to Litchurch, stuck an extra carriage in it and dragged it to Widnes, might be a bit odd but maybe that extra carriage is the reason, I can’t see any other reason?

 

[Merle Haggard]

Yeah, it seems that in the last few weeks they took it to Litchurch, stuck an extra carriage in it and dragged it to Widnes, might be a bit odd but maybe that extra carriage is the reason, I can’t see any other reason?

Yes, I can see the logic. But is it beyond the ability of a main works for carriage-building to re-programme an inserted coach? Etches Park seemed to manage with all the 4>5 and 7>5 etc re-forms.

 

[222001]

Yes, I can see the logic. But is it beyond the ability of a main works for carriage-building to re-programme an inserted coach? Etches Park seemed to manage with all the 4>5 and 7>5 etc re-forms.

I imagine after it's done there is a level of exam that has to be completed on the whole unit, to align the maintenance schedules of each coach. It could perhaps be it wasn't worth doing anything, as it's going to be taken apart at Widnes anyway. The inserted coach could have also needed an exam / maintenance to run, that wasn't seen as cost effective.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2026 ==

I'm also intrigued to know the current formation of 222005 if anybody has it, as I believe this will be the set with 2x ex-MFO coaches?

 

[Amos390]

I'm also intrigued to know the current formation of 222005 if anybody has it, as I believe this will be the set with 2x ex-MFO coaches?

As observed on Railcam, 60165 - 60347 - 60342 - 60625 - 60565 - 60245.

 

[CR165022]

222005 seems to be in a bit of a weird formation as the two MFOs are now towards the rear of the formation instead of next to the DMFO

 

[hexagon789]

222005 seems to be in a bit of a weird formation as the two MFOs are now towards the rear of the formation instead of next to the DMFO

They will be reseated, so will become Coaches B and C hence the shuffling within set.

 

[InvernessTMD]

Has anyone had experience on the 222s? I'm not finding a huge wealth of passenger anecdotes online. I'm a little concerned at how bad the 220's reputation is (although that might just be XC tarnishing them beyond belief). Hoping the train that replaces the HST can live up to its predecessor

 

[hexagon789]

Has anyone had experience on the 222s? I'm not finding a huge wealth of passenger anecdotes online. I'm a little concerned at how bad the 220's reputation is (although that might just be XC tarnishing them beyond belief). Hoping the train that replaces the HST can live up to its predecessor

The reduction in capacity vs the 5-car HSTs is my main concern with the 222s.

Reliability should arguably be better, simply from having more engines.

Not sure on other matters, such as seat comfort, air-con effectiveness etc.

 

[dk1]

The reduction in capacity vs the 5-car HSTs is my main concern with the 222s.

Reliability should arguably be better, simply from having more engines.

Not sure on other matters, such as seat comfort, air-con effectiveness etc.

Seat comfort is more than adequate and as you say reliability should improved too. Are there that many HST operated services on Scotrail that are normally overcrowded? Most I have caught are comfortable even at peak times.

 

[hexagon789]

Seat comfort is more than adequate and as you say reliability should improved too. Are there that many HST operated services on Scotrail that are normally overcrowded? Most I have caught are comfortable even at peak times.

It is not unheard of for even 2+5s to be full and standing even in First Class on certain workings in peak season or certain weekends.

Midwinter would be a different matter.

 

[liamf656]

The ones at EMR have been going through some difficulties for a while now but if maintained properly the 222s will be comfortable, reliable and the air con will work perfectly fine. I've travelled on them when they were at their best and they are good trains. Depends also how extensive the refurbishment is, which they need

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Seat comfort is more than adequate and as you say reliability should improved too. Are there that many HST operated services on Scotrail that are normally overcrowded? Most I have caught are comfortable even at peak times.

I think the 222’s will be more beneficial at replacing 158/170 diagrams.

I agree it’s rare that a HST is so full it’s standing, so overall the 222’s should cope. It’s particularly those unit run trains where it’s actually going to be more useful.

 

[sh24]

Has anyone had experience on the 222s? I'm not finding a huge wealth of passenger anecdotes online. I'm a little concerned at how bad the 220's reputation is (although that might just be XC tarnishing them beyond belief). Hoping the train that replaces the HST can live up to its predecessor

The best of the Voyager series, most especially the lack of toilet smells. The main downsides are the diesel engines yammering away under the floor and the appalling modile signal on board but otherwise they are pretty comfortable trains. Just a modest downgrade from the HSTs, and in Standard I think the 222 seats are more comfortable.