Revenue blockades at stations NOT managed by their TOC

[TT-ONR-NRN]

This morning at West Midlands Railway managed Worcester Foregate Street, a brigade of four GWR Revenue Inspectors in full green gear were barricading the narrow point between the entrance/ticket office and the main concourse, only letting people pass or leave when tickets and railcards were shown.

This included a couple rushing for the WMR Dorridge service.

It reminds me of when I alighted an Avanti service at Avanti managed Lancaster last year, and wasn’t able to leave the station until I presented my ticket and railcard to a brigade of Northern staff.

What’s the legal/railway standpoint on this as I find it interesting? In my opinion, if I’m entering a West Midlands Railway station and boarding a West Midlands Railway train, it‘s none of GWR’s business with what means of travel I’m doing it with. I suppose GWR are there to protect their services and WMR are fine with it as it technically helps them out.

 

[zwk500]

The National Rail Conditions of Travel treat all Train Companies as a collective whole.

Condition 18 says 'a' train company, not the train company you are travelling with.

18.1 You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company, hand over for inspection your Ticket and any Railcard, photocard or other form of personal identification which your Ticket requires.

National Rail Conditions of Travel | National Rail

The gateway to Britain's National Rail network. A portal into UK rail travel including train company information and promotions; train times; fares enquiries; ticket purchase and train running information

www.nationalrail.co.uk

In my opinion, if I’m entering a West Midlands Railway station and boarding a West Midlands Railway train, it‘s none of GWR’s business with what means of travel I’m doing it with. I suppose GWR are there to protect their services and WMR are fine with it as it technically helps them out.

GWR of course have no way of knowing you aren't using their services until they have seen your ticket.

 

[Acathater]

Where were the Lancaster team actually standing - on the station exits or on the platforms?

 

[LowLevel]

This morning at West Midlands Railway managed Worcester Foregate Street, a brigade of four GWR Revenue Inspectors in full green gear were barricading the narrow point between the entrance/ticket office and the main concourse, only letting people pass or leave when tickets and railcards were shown.

This included a couple rushing for the WMR Dorridge service.

It reminds me of when I alighted an Avanti service at Avanti managed Lancaster last year, and wasn’t able to leave the station until I presented my ticket and railcard to a brigade of Northern staff.

What’s the legal/railway standpoint on this as I find it interesting? In my opinion, if I’m entering a West Midlands Railway station and boarding a West Midlands Railway train, it‘s none of GWR’s business with what means of travel I’m doing it with. I suppose GWR are there to protect their services and WMR are fine with it as it technically helps them out.

The TOCs will be in agreement for it to happen. They work on each other's behalf in these instances. Been going on forever, before Northern got their own revenue protection staff EMT ones used to be hired in to do blocks at places like Meadowhall.

 

[AM9]

This morning at West Midlands Railway managed Worcester Foregate Street, a brigade of four GWR Revenue Inspectors in full green gear were barricading the narrow point between the entrance/ticket office and the main concourse, only letting people pass or leave when tickets and railcards were shown.

This included a couple rushing for the WMR Dorridge service.

It reminds me of when I alighted an Avanti service at Avanti managed Lancaster last year, and wasn’t able to leave the station until I presented my ticket and railcard to a brigade of Northern staff.

What’s the legal/railway standpoint on this as I find it interesting? In my opinion, if I’m entering a West Midlands Railway station and boarding a West Midlands Railway train, it‘s none of GWR’s business with what means of travel I’m doing it with. I suppose GWR are there to protect their services and WMR are fine with it as it technically helps them out.

Accept that the network is a shared environment (infrastructure and TOCs), and providing the inspector has a valid ID, (which at your insistence, they will show you), they are authorised to request and examine tickets. Any protestations about the uniform that inspectors etc. wear qualifying them to look at your travel documents are more likely to cause an altercation and delay whilst on railway premises.

 

[RPI]

The TOC doing the block need permission from whoever manages the station, that's about the only requirement.
Worcester Forgegate Street is a station where quite a few joint operations take place, you may well find that WMR Inspectors are joining them too.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Accept that the network is a shared environment (infrastructure and TOCs), and providing the inspector has a valid ID, (which at your insistence, they will show you), they are authorised to request and examine tickets. Any protestations about the uniform that inspectors etc. wear qualifying them to look at your travel documents are more likely to cause an altercation and delay whilst on railway premises.

Oh that goes without saying. I’m not quite so stupid as to cause a fuss, it’s no big deal, I have a valid ticket and they’re welcome to see it, I just wondered the standpoint on it.

 

[81A]

It is probably because GWR have a fare evasion problem between Evesham and Worcester. The last few times I have been that way there have been revenue checks on the train catching several people (and further people hiding out in toilets etc).

Probably due to layout constraints, but Worcester Shrub Hill/Foregate not being gated surprises me. Especially given other similar stations are gated.

 

[jackdoyle]

Not completely the same situation, but a few weeks ago LNWR platform staff at Euston p. 8-11 had closed every barrier on the gateline supposedly to help with crowds while awaiting a late arriving train (this just caused more trouble as when the train arrived people couldn't leave the gateline well as people were waiting in front of it), and for ages would not let passengers get through to catch the LO train.

 

[Mojo]

Penalty fares Tocs also publish within their scheme rules whether employees of other Tocs are allowed to collect Penalty fares on their behalf.

 

[Minnietheminx]

which at your insistence, they will show you

Not in my experience at Barnsley. When I asked to see the inspector's ID, he ran away rather than show it, much to the amusement of his colleagues (and, to be fair me - imagine a grown man, scared of a short, middle-aged woman, armed with a small wheeled suitcase and a walking stick mobility aid)

 

[BAFRA77]

It is probably because GWR have a fare evasion problem between Evesham and Worcester. The last few times I have been that way there have been revenue checks on the train catching several people (and further people hiding out in toilets etc).

Probably due to layout constraints, but Worcester Shrub Hill/Foregate not being gated surprises me. Especially given other similar stations are gated.

Pretty sure I saw plans years ago for the redevelopment of Foregate Street - including the installation of a gateline barrier system on the main concourse

 

[ACDC]

At Peterborough there were regular blocks by First Capital Connect when this station has intercity destinations. Not sure how that works as I believe East Coast didnt operate penalty fares, you get sold the full price undiscounted fare. Don't know the current situation.

 

[Kilopylae]

Not in my experience at Barnsley. When I asked to see the inspector's ID, he ran away rather than show it, much to the amusement of his colleagues (and, to be fair me - imagine a grown man, scared of a short, middle-aged woman, armed with a small wheeled suitcase and a walking stick mobility aid)

He probably realised he'd left it in his coat

 

[uniquicity]

Pretty sure I saw plans years ago for the redevelopment of Foregate Street - including the installation of a gateline barrier system on the main concourse

From Feb 2019

 

[ricoblade]

LNER manage Doncaster station but Northern sometimes do a revenue block at the top of the stairs as you exit onto the station forecourt. When I've been there they've only done it at the top of one of the two staircases.

 

[Rab Smith]

I run a business and a business supplying the same product as me wants to make sure customers pay for our products and are prepared to provide staff to do so, what's not to like?

 

[Minnietheminx]

He was

He probably realised he'd left it in his coat

He was wearing it, but wouldn't let me look at it or note his name.

 

[Kilopylae]

He was wearing it, but wouldn't let me look at it or note his naname

How bizarre! I wonder what he was so afraid of.

 

[chris53]

This morning at West Midlands Railway managed Worcester Foregate Street, a brigade of four GWR Revenue Inspectors in full green gear were barricading the narrow point between the entrance/ticket office and the main concourse, only letting people pass or leave when tickets and railcards were shown.

This included a couple rushing for the WMR Dorridge service.

It reminds me of when I alighted an Avanti service at Avanti managed Lancaster last year, and wasn’t able to leave the station until I presented my ticket and railcard to a brigade of Northern staff.

What’s the legal/railway standpoint on this as I find it interesting? In my opinion, if I’m entering a West Midlands Railway station and boarding a West Midlands Railway train, it‘s none of GWR’s business with what means of travel I’m doing it with. I suppose GWR are there to protect their services and WMR are fine with it as it technically helps them out.

I don't think I have ever been asked to show a ticket at Lancaster. For the record have always had a valid ticket, just never been asked to produce it

 

[Chrism20]

I don't think I have ever been asked to show a ticket at Lancaster. For the record have always had a valid ticket, just never been asked to produce it

I’ve seen them a couple of times this year. Always on the northbound side (forget the platform number). They block the exit from the platform out to the taxi rank/shop/footbridge/lifts.

Always Northern I’ve seen.

I assume it’s done due to the short distance between Preston and Lancaster

 

[saismee]

He was

He was wearing it, but wouldn't let me look at it or note his name.

Revenue protection staff do not have to give you their name, just their ID number.

Just to be clear I am not saying that running away isn't a bit silly/strange.

 

[D1537]

LNER manage Doncaster station but Northern sometimes do a revenue block at the top of the stairs as you exit onto the station forecourt. When I've been there they've only done it at the top of one of the two staircases.

I've seen them do both staircases. Only once, but then Donny is not my most regular station.

 

[Acathater]

I’ve seen them a couple of times this year. Always on the northbound side (forget the platform number). They block the exit from the platform out to the taxi rank/shop/footbridge/lifts.

Always Northern I’ve seen.

I assume it’s done due to the short distance between Preston and Lancaster

that's a bit dodgy......Lancaster is an open station, the ticket office is on the other side of the station across the bridge, and besides the two main entrances there is an unguarded gate on platform 1 and another to the car park at the south end of P3. Anyone using those who needs a ticket is going to hit the block before getting a chance to buy a ticket. And what if you've just met someone off the train? Open station so no ticket

 

[LowLevel]

Revenue protection staff do not have to give you their name, just their ID number.

Just to be clear I am not saying that running away isn't a bit silly/strange.

That isn't strictly true. If they're enforcing a byelaw a requirement of the byelaws is that the authorised person must show some ID which provides a means of identifying them. What that ID shows is up to the employer of course but if they only issue a form of ID with their employee's full name on it then that is up to them. Byelaws 24(3) refers. Note - it says shall produce a form of ID, not just give details.

 

[Chriso]

Thameslink revenue on the Luton - Rainham is conducted by SE between London Bridge and Rainham and I believe on the Blackfriars - Sevenoaks but may be wrong. It’s not common in these parts unless mob handed

 

[Chrism20]

that's a bit dodgy......Lancaster is an open station, the ticket office is on the other side of the station across the bridge, and besides the two main entrances there is an unguarded gate on platform 1 and another to the car park at the south end of P3. Anyone using those who needs a ticket is going to hit the block before getting a chance to buy a ticket. And what if you've just met someone off the train? Open station so no ticket

I've thought it was a strange set up when Ive seen it. I think from the way they are set up they would definitely see you coming from the car park. Never knew there was an entrance from P1 although haven't looked either tbh.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

I assume it’s done due to the short distance between Preston and Lancaster

I had occasion to work on a few of the Northern blocks at Lancaster, and the main reason for them was to catch people from Morecambe/Bare Lane on the busy morning trains.

 

[Mattplans]

Thameslink revenue on the Luton - Rainham is conducted by SE between London Bridge and Rainham and I believe on the Blackfriars - Sevenoaks but may be wrong. It’s not common in these parts unless mob handed

I had also assumed this, but we did see a post in the disputes forum about someone caught by GTR RPIs at Abbey Wood and they got GTR letters etc. Was pretty surprised.

 

[Chrism20]

I had occasion to work on a few of the Northern blocks at Lancaster, and the main reason for them was to catch people from Morecambe/Bare Lane on the busy morning trains.

Ah of course. Even shorter a journey than Preston to Lancaster. That makes sense