RPO on the GX - help!

[Terribelle608]

Hi,

I'm looking for some advice please. Info on my situation below:

• I was stopped by an RPO during a journey from Haywards Heath to London Victoria on the GX where I was asked to present my railcard (Job Centre Card) used for the ticket. I'd bought my ticket on the trainline app during the journey. I couldn't produce the railcard (it was expired anyway) and panicked, and said that I had the card somewhere at home. I complied and gave all contact information requested. My rights were read to me and I realise I messed up and should've taken the fine (which the RPO was, in hindsight, hinting at at the outset of our interaction).
• I asked what should I do if I can't find the card and they pointed me to write to the address on the printout they gave me.
• I haven't received a letter about this. This happened a week ago.
• I've probably made 20 or so journeys on the card since it expired. I have also short fared between London and Brighton.
• What I'm wondering is:
  • if I should write to the address given before they write to me?
  • How much detail should I give in the first place? I'm assuming that the fact that my card is expired is easy for the TOC to find out, and that investigations will be done to see how often I travelled on the expired card - is this right?
  • Should I say anything about shortfaring? Will they assume this when they see that the journeys I've made are inconsistent? Ie Haywards Heath to Victoria, and then Victoria to Gatwick?

I'm anxious and full of regret over these bad decisions, and want to settle this out of court and as quickly as possible.

Thanks in advance!

 

[AlterEgo]

Wait for them to contact you and when you are contacted, answer only the questions that have been asked of you. Do update us if and when you receive any correspondence, all you can do is wait. GTR often do not audit purchases because theyre lazy.

 

[Terribelle608]

Wait for them to contact you and when you are contacted, answer only the questions that have been asked of you. Do update us if and when you receive any correspondence, all you can do is wait. GTR often do not audit purchases because theyre lazy.

Thanks for the quick reply! They don't often audit purchases as in they don't often verify start and ends of journeys? Or they don't often look back to see if other journeys were made with the expired railcard?

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi,

I'm looking for some advice please. Info on my situation below:

• I was stopped by an RPO during a journey from Haywards Heath to London Victoria on the GX where I was asked to present my railcard (Job Centre Card) used for the ticket. I'd bought my ticket on the trainline app during the journey. I couldn't produce the railcard (it was expired anyway) and panicked, and said that I had the card somewhere at home. I complied and gave all contact information requested. My rights were read to me and I realise I messed up and should've taken the fine (which the RPO was, in hindsight, hinting at at the outset of our interaction).
• I asked what should I do if I can't find the card and they pointed me to write to the address on the printout they gave me.
• I haven't received a letter about this. This happened a week ago.
• I've probably made 20 or so journeys on the card since it expired. I have also short fared between London and Brighton.
• What I'm wondering is:
  • if I should write to the address given before they write to me?
  • How much detail should I give in the first place? I'm assuming that the fact that my card is expired is easy for the TOC to find out, and that investigations will be done to see how often I travelled on the expired card - is this right?
  • Should I say anything about shortfaring? Will they assume this when they see that the journeys I've made are inconsistent? Ie Haywards Heath to Victoria, and then Victoria to Gatwick?

I'm anxious and full of regret over these bad decisions, and want to settle this out of court and as quickly as possible.

Thanks in advance!

It might be some time before they contact you eg six to eight weeks.
If you have not heard in about 4 months come back here for advice on what to consider at that stage.

Little point in contacting them now really. Unless you wanted to write to explain that the railcard had in fact expired.

So did you at some point actually have a Job Seeker railcard? If so that’s quite rare.
We see lots of cases on here of people claiming that discount and getting caught, but I don’t think any / many of them have ever actually had the railcard.

 

[SECR 65]

Thanks for the quick reply! They don't often audit purchases as in they don't often verify start and ends of journeys? Or they don't often look back to see if other journeys were made with the expired railcard?

You will need to honestly tell them the origin and destination of the journey that you were caught on, if the inspector did not already write this down. GTR often don't bother looking into previous journeys. There is little point in openly telling them about these, unless they specifically ask you about them.

 

[Terribelle608]

It might be some time before they contact you eg six to eight weeks.
If you have not heard in about 4 months come back here for advice on what to consider at that stage.

Little point in contacting them now really. Unless you wanted to write to explain that the railcard had in fact expired.

So did you at some point actually have a Job Seeker railcard? If so that’s quite rare.
We see lots of cases on here of people claiming that discount and getting caught, but I don’t think any / many of them have ever actually had the railcard.

Thanks for this. Yes I did have the railcard, I'd thought it only just expired but it did back in August. I assume the TOC would only have to ask the JC if there was a card issued in my name/dates of validity to verify this.

Do you think writing soon to explain that that the card has expired and that I am no longer using it would be a wise move or should I leave it until they contact me?

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks for this. Yes I did have the railcard, I'd thought it only just expired but it did back in August. I assume the TOC would only have to ask the JC if there was a card issued in my name/dates of validity to verify this.

Do you think writing soon to explain that that the card has expired and that I am no longer using it would be a wise move or should I leave it until they contact me?

Wait until they contact you! There is no benefit to writing to them before hand.

Keep hold of proof of the expired card, in case they audit your purchases - then you can show that at least some of the purchases were legitimate.

 

[WesternLancer]

Wait until they contact you! There is no benefit to writing to them before hand.

Keep hold of proof of the expired card, in case they audit your purchases - then you can show that at least some of the purchases were legitimate.

I agree with this.

OP should just diary coming back here in 4 months for advice on options to consider if they have not heard from the railway but if course in the mean time ask as many questions as they want to - people here will know the answers I'm sure

 

[Greyman1]

They will likely go through your trainline history. Have you made previous purchases using a JC card?
Sit tight and wait for them to come to you. Much the same as the others have said.

 

[Terribelle608]

You will need to honestly tell them the origin and destination of the journey that you were caught on, if the inspector did not already write this down. GTR often don't bother looking into previous journeys. There is little point in openly telling them about these, unless they specifically ask you about them.

The inspector did already write down Haywards Heath, it's in their witness statement so I suppose I don't need to say anything further to this unless asked?

 

[SECR 65]

The inspector did already write down Haywards Heath, it's in their witness statement so I suppose I don't need to say anything further to this unless asked?

Yes, so GTR will already know the details of your journey, so you won't need to tell them specifically. They may reference the start and end points of the journey in their letter. The anytime single fare will be used to calculate the settlement amount. They will not require 'proof' that you boarded at Haywards Heath.

 

[Terribelle608]

Hi all, thank you again for the guidance on this a couple months ago. I have now had a letter titled “intention to prosecute” asking me to share my side of the story from when I had my interaction with the RPO.

Can I ask what your advice on this would be, please?

Also, I have found the (expired) railcard - do I share that with them in my reply?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Also, I have found the (expired) railcard - do I share that with them in my reply?

Do you mean the Railcard was expired when you were caught, or that it's expired now?

If it was expired when you were caught, then I wouldn't bother mentioning it. If it was valid at that point, then do tell them.

Also, we'll be able to give you better advice if you can show us the letter you have now received: make sure to hide your personal details first though!

We ask for this as the letters can vary a little - and it makes sense to answer exactly what you have been asked rather than what might have been.

 

[SECR 65]

Hi all, thank you again for the guidance on this a couple months ago. I have now had a letter titled “intention to prosecute” asking me to share my side of the story from when I had my interaction with the RPO.

This sounds like the usual kind of letter GTR send. You'll find loads of these on the forum if you'd like to have a look at other people's draft responses.

Can I ask what your advice on this would be, please?

Make sure you're truthful, but don't tell them more than they're asking for, nor further incriminate yourself.

• Apologise for travelling without a valid ticket - in this case due to the railcard being expired.
• Show that you understand the importance of having a valid ticket for your journey, and the impact of not doing so.
• Say that you will always ensure to purchase correct tickets in future. If you use trains lots and are eligible for a railcard, it would be ideal to purchase another one, and write down the expiry date e.g in your phone calendar. Give them the new railcard ref number and say that you've written down the expiry date.
• Ask if they would consider settling the matter without the need for court action, and offer to pay the outstanding fare plus any administrative fees incurred by GTR.

Also, I have found the (expired) railcard - do I share that with them in my reply?

I would just say that you're sorry for the oversight of not checking the expiry date of the railcard.

Thanks in advance.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all, thank you again for the guidance on this a couple months ago. I have now had a letter titled “intention to prosecute” asking me to share my side of the story from when I had my interaction with the RPO.

Can I ask what your advice on this would be, please?

Also, I have found the (expired) railcard - do I share that with them in my reply?

Thanks in advance.

The general advice given here (very much in line with the recent posts made) about how to reply to the letter you have now had is:

When you receive the letter post a redacted copy of it in this thread, along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you. You'll find lots of example letters you can use in this section of the forum but the reply basically needs to mention:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident and will not do this again
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the railway company’s administrative costs in dealing with the matter


With regard to your Railcard - you mention that this was a Job Centre Railcard, and that you have now found the expired Railcard.
You also mention short faring on some occasions (so deliberate evasion)

We see on here that Job Centre Railcards are often used for deliberate evasion (by people who actually don't have a valid one / never had one).
Did you ever have a valid Job Centre Railcard? (or was it another different Railcard?)- Either way you should keep proof of the Railcard safely now you have found it in case that is asked for.
Did you know the Railcard had expired or was this an oversight on your part?

Unless they are asking about these matters in the letter it's probably best avoiding talking about them - however, they may yet ask you about them or they may check your past ticket buying records and ask about things they find that are suspicious (like possible short faring). So bear that in mind when you draft your reply now. It's better to not talk about things at all then say anything that is a lie - as a lie can come unstuck and you don't really know how much they know about you / your tickets etc etc

As mentioned - people here can check your draft reply before you send it if that would help.

When sending your response:
Keep copies of everything you send and if you are uploading a response to their portal make a screen grab or some such that proves you did that - just in case you need it. If posting your reply hard copy send it tracked postage

 

[Terribelle608]

Do you mean the Railcard was expired when you were caught, or that it's expired now?

If it was expired when you were caught, then I wouldn't bother mentioning it. If it was valid at that point, then do tell them.

Also, we'll be able to give you better advice if you can show us the letter you have now received: make sure to hide your personal details first though!

We ask for this as the letters can vary a little - and it makes sense to answer exactly what you have been asked rather than what might have been.

Hi, thanks for this - I’ve attached photos of the letter now. I think it might be the standard letter as you mentioned?

And yes, the railcard was expired when I was stopped.

 

[Spaceship323]

We need to see what it says at the top of the letter to know what you've been accused of

 

[Terribelle608]

We need to see what it says at the top of the letter to know what you've been accused of

Of course! Attached now. Thanks!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 22:23 ==

Here’s my draft response - thanks in advance and all suggestions welcome:

Dear Prosecutions Department,

I am writing in response to your letter regarding the incident on [Date of Incident].

Let me start by apologising for travelling without a valid ticket. On the day in question, I presented a ticket discounted with my Railcard, without realising that the Railcard in question had expired. I accept full responsibility for failing to check its validity before boarding.

I fully appreciate the importance of holding a valid ticket, as well as the wider impact that unpaid fares have on the rail network and service funding.

This was an oversight on my part, but I acknowledge that it was entirely my responsibility to ensure I had the correct fare. I can assure you it will not happen again. I have made sure that my tickets since do not have this expired railcard discount applied.

I am very keen to resolve this matter amicably without the need for court action.

I respectfully ask if you would consider offering an out-of-court settlement. I am fully prepared to pay the outstanding fare in full, alongside any administrative costs in dealing with this matter.

Thank you for taking the time to review my response and for considering my request.

 

[SECR 65]

I think your letter is generally good. Wait a day or so as others may have suggestions.

 

[WesternLancer]

Of course! Attached now. Thanks!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 22:23 ==

Here’s my draft response - thanks in advance and all suggestions welcome:

Dear Prosecutions Department,

I am writing in response to your letter regarding the incident on [Date of Incident].

Let me start by apologising for travelling without a valid ticket. On the day in question, I presented a ticket discounted with my Railcard, without realising that the Railcard in question had expired. I accept full responsibility for failing to check its validity before boarding.

I fully appreciate the importance of holding a valid ticket, as well as the wider impact that unpaid fares have on the rail network and service funding.

This was an oversight on my part, but I acknowledge that it was entirely my responsibility to ensure I had the correct fare. I can assure you it will not happen again. I have made sure that my tickets since do not have this expired railcard discount applied.

I am very keen to resolve this matter amicably without the need for court action.

I respectfully ask if you would consider offering an out-of-court settlement. I am fully prepared to pay the outstanding fare in full, alongside any administrative costs in dealing with this matter.

Thank you for taking the time to review my response and for considering my request.

Yes, the letter you have uploaded looks like the standard GTR one I think.

Minor point but I would include your ref number under the 'Dear...

eg
Dear Prosecutions Department,

Your Ref:

I am writing in response to your letter regarding the incident on [Date of Incident].

Let me start by apologising for


Keep a copy of whatever you send them / upload to their portal - and keep some sort of proof of doing it - eg a screen grab or if posted, send it tracked postage

I assume at some point you genuinely had a Job Centre Railcard (that then expired) and not some other sort of Railcard? (this is important because the Job Centre Railcard provides a higher discount and we see cases on here involving it's use where people have never actually had one but have used it to claim the more generous discount - which is deliberate evasion as opposed to an oversight to fail to renew a Railcard).

 

[Terribelle608]

Yes, the letter you have uploaded looks like the standard GTR one I think.

Minor point but I would include your ref number under the 'Dear...

eg
Dear Prosecutions Department,

Your Ref:

I am writing in response to your letter regarding the incident on [Date of Incident].

Let me start by apologising for


Keep a copy of whatever you send them / upload to their portal - and keep some sort of proof of doing it - eg a screen grab or if posted, send it tracked postage

I assume at some point you genuinely had a Job Centre Railcard (that then expired) and not some other sort of Railcard? (this is important because the Job Centre Railcard provides a higher discount and we see cases on here involving it's use where people have never actually had one but have used it to claim the more generous discount - which is deliberate evasion as opposed to an oversight to fail to renew a Railcard).

Thanks for this. Yes, I genuinely had a job centre railcard but it expired around 10 months prior to being stopped.

I’m assuming there might be investigation to see if there are other journeys on that with that discount post expiry (there are) - should I mention that at all?

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for this. Yes, I genuinely had a job centre railcard but it expired around 10 months prior to being stopped.

Thanks for clarifying - no problem there then - tho I would retain any proof you had that you possessed it and anything that creates evidence of the expiry date

I’m assuming there might be investigation to see if there are other journeys on that with that discount post expiry (there are) - should I mention that at all?

I would not do so at this stage if there is no questions about it in the letter you have received. So long as your draft reply does not claim it was only the once - which the draft does not - then I can't see a problem.

But yes, they might investigate it and then ask you about it - GTR didn't seem to do that in the past but we have started to see a few cases where they have begun to do so - so at this stage I would be prepared in case they do

By being prepared I mean -

- go through your own records and make a list of those other tickets wrongly discounted for your own private records so that you are ready if they ask you about them (they might do this when they get your reply, or that may do it a while later on

- calculate those fares. They might ask for the difference between the fare you paid and the undiscounted fare, or they may ask for the full Anytime Single fare (which is usually the most expensive fare for any particular journey). Add up the totals for both scenarios and be prepared to be asked for it - ie save up the money in case they do