HSTEd
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I'm more worried that the lobbying campaign by the dinosaurs will now escalate to demanding huge tariffs on the like of BYD. Just like in America and the EU.
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UK switching to electric vehicles discussion
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Peter Sarf
Established Member
My bold.
I suspect very few people will go back to an ICE once they have made the switch to EV so not really a significant point - but still positive.
The question is how many current ICE owners are going to switch to EV.
That is, I hope, the best reason for people to switch to EV - word of mouth.
So it is likely that the switch to EV will continue at a certain pace regardless of targets.
Except targets might have meant artificially cheaper EVs because subsidised by higher sale prices for ICEs.
At some point in the future EVs might go up in price more than expected when there are no (or few) ICEs to compete with. This will happen if current EVs are being sold too cheaply as a result of targets. It will be another example of the motorist being left high and dry by policies that tinkered with a market too much or just get changed. We were all supposed to switch to diesel in years gone by. I was bucking the trend amongst friends over diesel merely because I was cynical (some now have to pay ULEZ as a result, mind you my much older petrol ICE was not exempt either BUT I had not spent as much money buying & running as they did).
I will be a late adopter of EV but then I hardly need a car these days anyway.
Had a few conversations with the younger generation where they are not considering a manual licence. Often going against their parents suggestion (I would recommend attaining a manual licence so can drive anything in the future). So perhaps we are going the way of the US where "sticks" (ie manual cars) have been unusual for decades.A car trader friend mentioned recently that a side effect of the move to EVs is that he cannot get enough automatic ICE vehicles. I found an old BBC article (linked) showing tests taken in automatics going from 6% in 2013 to around 26% by 2025.
Presumably any ICE respite will need to reflect that changing competence.
One in four UK driving tests taken in automatic cars
The UK's 2030 ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel cars is said to be driving the trend.www.bbc.co.uk
If people don't want manual cars then perhaps EVs are more attractive going forward ?.
I presume there's similar profit margins on ICEs to EVs so this doesn't make so much sense to me. I saw an arguement that this is in response to Chinese EVs as they're more competitively priced than those made here.
Do those friends all have access to home charging? I wouldn't recommend one to those who can't, and there's little progess on improving charging for those who can't.
Here is one who is thinking of anything except an EV. With a budget of £5K there are much better deals on ICES than EVs
No.
Peter Sarf
Established Member
That is going to be the hurdle. Home charging not available for a section of the population who will then take more encouraging to give up their ICEs.
The convenience factor of home charging cannot be overcome BUT the costs of charging away from home need to be a lot closer to the costs of home charging for progress to be made with potential EV owners with no driveway etc. A regular commuter might get a space with a charger at work of course.
In the bigger picture I would like to see public transport being more attractive than cars. EVs do not reduce traffic congestion etc.
The convenience factor of home charging cannot be overcome BUT the costs of charging away from home need to be a lot closer to the costs of home charging for progress to be made with potential EV owners with no driveway etc. A regular commuter might get a space with a charger at work of course.
In the bigger picture I would like to see public transport being more attractive than cars. EVs do not reduce traffic congestion etc.
thejuggler
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How many of those with their first EV have ever had an automatic car? I've driven autos for about 30 of my 40 driving years so when I get in an EV I don't have a moment of revelation about how easy autos are over manuals (as a friend did when we went out in the Leaf pool car over ten years ago) - that moment for me went decades ago.
When my daughter passed in a manual her first requirement was for an auto (because she had practiced in my auto from being about 15), which as the report suggests was an issue as she had a limited budget and some ICE autos are real moneypits so the choice she had was even more restricted.
When my daughter passed in a manual her first requirement was for an auto (because she had practiced in my auto from being about 15), which as the report suggests was an issue as she had a limited budget and some ICE autos are real moneypits so the choice she had was even more restricted.
Why?
I have always work colleague who frequently charges their EV in the local public car park, and nips back there to move it at lunchtime or whenever it is charged to avoid hogging the space.
We have family who have an EV and no home charger. Doesn't seem to cause them a problem either.
Our local Sainsbury's has 10 chargers - 4x300kW, 5x150kW and a 50kW. Should be able to get a reasonable charge done whilst doing your weekly shop I'd have thought.
A little further afield, I can see an Instavolt location with 44x160kW chargers and 10x60kW chargers, with Starbucks onsite.
I can't agree with you that home charging is vital. I manage perfectly well charging every 2 or 3 weeks without it.
I also have to disagree that public charging isn't improving. The figures simply tell us a different story. Public charging has never been easier.
I'm feeling contrary today, so I also have to disagree with this statement. If running costs are someone's primary concern, then surely the cost of charging has to compete favourably with fossil fuels?
The profit margins on ZEV's, reports of manufacturers losing £11,000 per ZEV as they struggle with the quotas of the ZEV mandate , then we have the leasing companies seeking Govt financial handouts to offset unanticipated losses by depreciation on disposals of off-lease ZEVs.
I have not read reports of losses of £11,000 per IC vehicle or cries for help over their depreciation.
telstarbox
Established Member
Apart from motorway services which cater for long journeys, supermarkets are probably the sweet spot for public charging in terms of cost, charging speed and productive use of the charging time.
In the last couple of weeks I've been to two Morrisons which have blue MFG chargers in the car park and Sainsbury's now have them at most of their large stores.
I don't think they need to match the domestic electricity price to be successful - just to stay below the cost of petrol, which is definitely happening at the moment!
In the last couple of weeks I've been to two Morrisons which have blue MFG chargers in the car park and Sainsbury's now have them at most of their large stores.
I don't think they need to match the domestic electricity price to be successful - just to stay below the cost of petrol, which is definitely happening at the moment!
I don't have a home charger, the vast majority of my electricity has come from a work place charger.
If I need any extra I try and use be.ev now as they only cost 39p/kWh between 7pm and 7am on their fast chargers without membership.
I wonder if my son will want to learn to drive a manual car, as realistically he's likely going to get an EV as his first car when he's older and able to take a test. Manual licences will be useful for work, if you need to drive a company vehicle, but in 5 or 10 years there's a good chance many businesses will have switched (perhaps sooner, as businesses almost certainly lease so change vehicles more frequently).
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I don't get why someone who can't charge at home should not buy an EV. Sure, you might need to drive to a charger (instead of a petrol station) and maybe wait 20-30 minutes, but you can now get rates from 20-40p (often requiring a subscription, but that might add up to £100-120 a year and will be fixed) at some rapid chargers.
Obviously this may not work for all, if such a charger is miles away, but it probably isn't. So out of those who can't charge at home, a great deal could charge nearby and with the average mileage meaning maybe having to charge once a week or fortnight, surely the savings make it possible to sit in your car (or go for a walk) for 30 minutes every now and then?
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Can you please link to the report of car makers losing £11k per EV sale?
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I read that as they're having to discount EVs and make a loss to hit targets (i.e they aren't or weren't selling enough EVs vs ICE), not that every EV sold loses the manufacturer £11k.
I mean, if I was a manufacturer that had an incentive to slow down the adoption of EVs due to competition from the cheaper far east EVs and dwindling servicing revenues, I might artificially inflate the recommended retail price of my vehicles to offset some of the loss of servicing over the subsequent years.
I might then be able to use a 'discount', but still make a profit, as an excuse to cry to my highly influential trade association and hope they lobby central government on my behalf.
Or they could genuinely be losing £11k on every car.
I might then be able to use a 'discount', but still make a profit, as an excuse to cry to my highly influential trade association and hope they lobby central government on my behalf.
Or they could genuinely be losing £11k on every car.
If you're able to charge at home, EVs win out on convience and cost to the extent that it seems crazy not to have an EV, hence my recommendation.
Other situations as you're all describing are neutral or worse in cost and/or convience compared to an ICE so I don't recommend. I agree these inconvinences can be minor if you drive little, or have reasonably priced charging at work/supermarkets. However most people don't want to spend 5 minutes moving their car at lunch, or pick when to go to the supermarket and which supermarket based on the price of electricity.
I should have specified that by improving charging I meant access to home charging rather than public charging. Public charging is in a good place, but access home charging for flats or terraces needs improving as cheap driving is such an advantage. Unfortunately it's a divide that means those who can't afford driveways have to pay more to drive.
Other situations as you're all describing are neutral or worse in cost and/or convience compared to an ICE so I don't recommend. I agree these inconvinences can be minor if you drive little, or have reasonably priced charging at work/supermarkets. However most people don't want to spend 5 minutes moving their car at lunch, or pick when to go to the supermarket and which supermarket based on the price of electricity.
I should have specified that by improving charging I meant access to home charging rather than public charging. Public charging is in a good place, but access home charging for flats or terraces needs improving as cheap driving is such an advantage. Unfortunately it's a divide that means those who can't afford driveways have to pay more to drive.
johncrossley
Established Member
Obviously lots of people in Norway don't charge at home, otherwise they wouldn't have near 100% new cars being electric. How much do they pay to charge away from home and where do they charge?
My monthly reminder that my local Tesla Supercharger is 21p per kWh off peak. I stop for 10 or 15 minutes on the way to work now and again. Walk in to the services and get a coffee and get on my way. I know not everyone wants to drive a Tesla, but lots of Tesla Superchargers are "Open to All", and I noticed, for example, St Albans is 41p off peak (no membership) just turn up and pay.
Quite right! People need to have a look on Electroverse or ZapMap and go to the charger that offers the lowest price closest to them. This is the same thing I used to do when I drove a petrol car - I avoided Shell and BP as they are always more expensive than supermarkets.
(The attached photo shows the comparative costs of charging from the Tesla website as discussed above.)
johncrossley
Established Member
What is the connection to Norway here?
They both start with the same letter?
I had a quick look on Electroverse for Bergen and it looks like public charging, 400 kW, is around 47p per unit.
(Image shows a map of Norway with charging points and places.)
With a subscription that's probably less, while the new Home Bargains nearby is charging around 65p or so. Not as cheap, but it's likely very possible to do a near full charge in the time it takes to do a shop inside. Many supermarkets are now offering rapid chargers rather than just 7-22kW chargers that might only be good for a small top-up.
Aldi and Lidl are rolling them out. Tesco is still a bit hit and miss, while Sainsbury's has set up as a charge operator. I think Morrisons has a contract with MFG, which includes other things like car washing and hoover facilities, although sadly you can't do those things and charge at the same time!
GusB
Established Member
Considering that the thread title specifically refers to the UK switching to EVs, I'm not sure what relevance Norway has to the discussion, either!
johncrossley
Established Member
Considering that the thread title specifically refers to the UK switching to EVs, I'm not sure what relevance Norway has to the discussion, either!
Norway is extremely relevant because they are the world leaders in EV adoption, so it is makes a lot of sense to try and understand how the implementation works there to see if lessons can be learned.
Having much cheaper electricity and no domestic car industry to harm by putting punitive tariffs on car imports.
But most pertinently to the question being asked, almost 100% take up of EVs in new car sales, and lots of Norwegian residents without off-street parking. So if Norway can manage 100% EV sales, the issue of charging if you don’t have off street parking must be resolvable.
With EVs generally costing more up front, the selling point has been you save on the running costs. But if you’re restricted to public chargers it’s not unlikely that it will cost you more per mile than the ICE. Which destroys the value proposition.
Does it though? Firstly, you can now get EVs for less new than a petrol car spec for spec - and second hand, they're even cheaper.
And if you can charge for 20-40p then I'm pretty sure you're better off than petrol or diesel. The argument against EVs is almost always assuming public charging to cost 80 or 90p, which it is at many sites including service stations. There's the assumption that someone with an EV will be using an overpriced BP or Shell charger, whereas an ICE owner uses their local ASDA.
There's also the fact that a lot of ICE owners swear by premium fuels for added performance, but almost certainly don't mention that when doing the maths. That can easily add 5p or more per litre.