The current state of politics in Northern Ireland

[AlterEgo]

mods note - split from this thread

Reform UK discussion

As we have one for the other parties... Reform are campaigning in the Kent County Council election as they are elsewhere. From their local social media pages they seem to be doing door to door campaigning more than the Tories. They have a series of Facebook posts with a lot of likes / comments...

www.railforums.co.uk

Nobody in England cares about what is happening in Belfast. It's happening in another place and may as well be another country. Whatever loyalists have done in Northern Ireland has no real bearing on the British political centre of gravity, and will be ignored.

The average British person views loyalists in NI as some sort of errant franchise of Britain which we've washed our hands of long ago.

 

[Harpo]

Nobody in England cares about what is happening in Belfast.

Actually I care deeply as it’s further UK right wing violence and thuggery.

 

[AlterEgo]

Okay well I've now found two people who care. But as a general rule it will not move the political dial whatsoever in England. Note how we didn't get a whole load of identical riots here, like we did with the Southport case.

It is happening overseas in NI, a maligned and forgotten part of the UK, and out of our political centre of gravity.

 

[brad465]

Nobody in England cares about what is happening in Belfast. It's happening in another place and may as well be another country. Whatever loyalists have done in Northern Ireland has no real bearing on the British political centre of gravity, and will be ignored.

The average British person views loyalists in NI as some sort of errant franchise of Britain which we've washed our hands of long ago.

Actually I care deeply as it’s further UK right wing violence and thuggery.

Northern Ireland is, to put it mildly, a ******* mess, and most of those jumping on the bandwagon of one incident there have no idea that it's just a continuation of sectarian tensions that have gone on for a century. The police failings there are not the same as in Great Britain either, they are effectively cowardice and an inability to deal with gangs and deeply embedded tribalism. Many of those who have jumped on this bandwagon about the border issue also conveniently are unaware of how the sort of border controls they seem to want will do far more damage than the status quo, which post-Brexit is bad enough as it is.

This problem is so entrenched that, short of a major indiscriminate military invasion launched against Northern Ireland by an external military/power (providing the population a common enemy to actually unite behind), it will be a miracle if it's ever fixed anytime in the lifetime of anyone alive today. Reform UK and co. certainly don't care about NI, nor their TUV allies in NI, who if anything pour petrol onto the fire.

 

[35B]

Northern Ireland is, to put it mildly, a ******* mess, and most of those jumping on the bandwagon of one incident there have no idea that it's just a continuation of sectarian tensions that have gone on for a century. The police failings there are not the same as in Great Britain either, they are effectively cowardice and an inability to deal with gangs and deeply embedded tribalism. Many of those who have jumped on this bandwagon about the border issue also conveniently are unaware of how the sort of border controls they seem to want will do far more damage than the status quo, which post-Brexit is bad enough as it is.

This problem is so entrenched that, short of a major indiscriminate military invasion launched against Northern Ireland by an external military/power (providing the population a common enemy to actually unite behind), it will be a miracle if it's ever fixed anytime in the lifetime of anyone alive today. Reform UK and co. certainly don't care about NI, nor their TUV allies in NI, who if anything pour petrol onto the fire.

I think what’s happened there this week deserves more attention, as do the links between the far right and some unionist organisations (ditto, on the left, between hard left and Republicans).

I agree though that this will not affect electoral politics nationally - well not unless the Unionists hold a balance of power as they did in 2017

 

[DoubleLemon]

Okay well I've now found two people who care. But as a general rule it will not move the political dial whatsoever in England. Note how we didn't get a whole load of identical riots here, like we did with the Southport case.

It is happening overseas in NI, a maligned and forgotten part of the UK, and out of our political centre of gravity.

I care being born there and how easily it can be taken over by sectarian groups. (it probably is already as a way to stir up the same old sh**) it can easily spill into the Ireland and mainland England (usually England)

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think what’s happened there this week deserves more attention

Nobody has the appetite to provide that attention, though. The BBC has been incredibly careful in its reporting to not draw any attention at all as to precisely which community in Northern Ireland is doing all the rioting.

The Unionists are losing their control in Northern Ireland and that is all this is really about. People moving to Northern Ireland from elsewhere in Europe and elsewhere in the world aren't interested in buying what the DUP are selling. Sinn Fein are now the biggest party on both sides of the Irish border as a result. Maybe a few more firebombings might encourage them to leave again...

 

[35B]

Nobody has the appetite to provide that attention, though. The BBC has been incredibly careful in its reporting to not draw any attention at all as to precisely which community in Northern Ireland is doing all the rioting.

The Unionists are losing their control in Northern Ireland and that is all this is really about. People moving to Northern Ireland from elsewhere in Europe and elsewhere in the world aren't interested in buying what the DUP are selling. Sinn Fein are now the biggest party on both sides of the Irish border as a result. Maybe a few more firebombings might encourage them to leave again...

All true, but I don't think this is particularly about what the DUP sell - mention of "Traditional Unionist Voice" suggests that this is from the segment of the Unionist population that regard the DUP as sellouts (although some may also vote DUP at elections).

 

[Tetchytyke]

All true, but I don't think this is particularly about what the DUP sell - mention of "Traditional Unionist Voice" suggests that this is from the segment of the Unionist population that regard the DUP as sellouts (although some may also vote DUP at elections).

Sort of. The TUV are the hardliners who grew out of the DUP, just as the DUP were the hardliners who grew out of the UUP. People weren't buying what the DUP were selling so, obviously, the best solution is to lurch further to the right. Jim Allister was never the full shilling.

I don't think people in GB realise just how seismic it actually was with Sinn Fein winning Stormont.

 

[Killingworth]

I don't think people in GB realise just how seismic it actually was with Sinn Fein winning Stormont.

As most people living in Britain outside of Ireland have never been there, let alone tried to understand any of the history of the island, the gradual shift in balance is beyond their comprehension. With Ulster roots proven back over 200 years I can't help noting that active church participation has dropped off enormously within my lifetime. Yet the old divide lines continue despite that.

My grandfather was Irish first, and proud of it. Belfast was home, but his relatives belonged to many Protestant congregations - until his brother married a Catholic which caused a major rift!

 

[brad465]

As most people living in Britain outside of Ireland have never been there, let alone tried to understand any of the history of the island, the gradual shift in balance is beyond their comprehension. With Ulster roots proven back over 200 years I can't help noting that active church participation has dropped off enormously within my lifetime. Yet the old divide lines continue despite that.

My grandfather was Irish first, and proud of it. Belfast was home, but his relatives belonged to many Protestant congregations - until his brother married a Catholic which caused a major rift!

This has got Romeo & Juliet vibes about it.

 

[Killingworth]

This has got Romeo & Juliet vibes about it.

But errant Robert had found his partner in New York, not Belfast, and the family eventually became reconciled. However researching that showed me how many Irish males sought their fortunes across the pond and later brought over their Irish soulmate - much as happens with immigrant communities in Britain today.

 

[ainsworth74]

As most people living in Britain outside of Ireland have never been there, let alone tried to understand any of the history of the island, the gradual shift in balance is beyond their comprehension.

I've thought for a while it's disappointing that Irish and specifically Northern Irish history doesn't get anything more than a passing mention (if it even gets that!) in school curriculums. Considering the amount of bloodshed, much of it in recent memory, and how it still influences events both locally but also for the UK as a whole (think of Brexit and how much was driven by Northern Ireland) it seems barmy that it's glossed over.

Though in this day and age no doubt some people would lose their minds ("HOW DARE THEY TEACH OUR CHILDREN THAT THE BRITISH ARMY WERE ANYTHING OTHER THAN SAINTLY ANGELS" - "HOW DARE THEY SUGGEST THAT GERRY ADAMS MIGHT HAVE BEEN A TERRORIST", delete accordingly) making it very difficult to actually teach anything. Despite the importance of the subject, in my view, to the UK as a whole.

I can already imagine the lather that the likes of Reform MPs and Nigel Farage would work themselves into if you tried to teach about, say, Bloody Sunday in anything other than a completely pro-British Army point of view.

 

[35B]

I can already imagine the lather that the likes of Reform MPs and Nigel Farage would work themselves into if you tried to teach about, say, Bloody Sunday in anything other than a completely pro-British Army point of view.

Or, making your wider point, how the left and Republicans would be outraged if you suggested that there was a backdrop against which Bloody Sunday needs to be understood*

* - for clarity, not exonerating or otherwise defending the disgraceful conduct of the Paras on Bloody Sunday

 

[AlterEgo]

Northern Ireland's history would be problematic to teach children because much of it is contested and "live" - so much understanding would be lost if you tried to teach it at GSCE or pre-GCSE level. In any case, the way Northern Ireland has elected to deal with history is to try and draw a line under as much of it as possible, instead of opting for truth and reconciliation.

 

[sor]

I was educated in England and "the troubles" were one of the topics covered as part of GCSE History. I don't recall it being particularly biased.

I guess it depends on which exam boards were used and all of that stuff?

 

[AlterEgo]

I was educated in England and "the troubles" were one of the topics covered as part of GCSE History. I don't recall it being particularly biased.

I guess it depends on which exam boards were used and all of that stuff?

Out of interest, when did you take your GCSEs?

 

[Gloster]

I have an Irish first name and went to an English public school in the mid-1970s. The result was that I regularly had the shish kicked out of me for being one of Paisley’s IRA murderers, this with the tacit approval of quite a few masters and the active encouragement of a few. There was a simple lack of understanding of what was going on and a feeling that ‘our brave boys’ were being murdered by the Irish as they tried to protect the Unionists, who were really British patriots with a funny accent (don’t they wave Union Jacks). The whole of society was anti-Irish (remember all those jokes about the stupid Irish) and almost nobody had any understanding of the deep seated roots of the problem and the actions on both sides that just kept it going. Any attempt to try and understand had you branded as an appeaser of terrorists.

Bloodstains take a long time to be washed out of the soul in Ireland. (I read that years ago and it stuck.)

Edited to correct date.

 

[35B]

Northern Ireland's history would be problematic to teach children because much of it is contested and "live" - so much understanding would be lost if you tried to teach it at GSCE or pre-GCSE level. In any case, the way Northern Ireland has elected to deal with history is to try and draw a line under as much of it as possible, instead of opting for truth and reconciliation.

Agreed on truth and reconciliation, but I studied the Arab-Israeli conflict at GCSE (1988-90). It was possible, and the course I did followed very similar lines to those I studied as an undergraduate a few years later (but obviously in less depth).

 

[Electrostar387]

Northern Ireland's history would be problematic to teach children because much of it is contested and "live" - so much understanding would be lost if you tried to teach it at GSCE or pre-GCSE level. In any case, the way Northern Ireland has elected to deal with history is to try and draw a line under as much of it as possible, instead of opting for truth and reconciliation.

Just to add I also learnt about Conflict in Northern Ireland at GCSE level; perhaps we had a particularly enthusiastic teacher, as we also did the American West, Medicine through time and Britain's role in the Transatlantic Slave Trade.

 

[Killingworth]

There's a lot I could write about the troubles of the last century centred on Ulster, religion, Sinn Fein, Unionists and the army but that's a big can of worms that does not need Reform's intervention so outside this thread.

 

[The Ham]

The last dozen or more posts aren't directly associated with Reform but would make an excellent start to a separate thread about the background to the recent riots in Belfast. In fact I am surprised that there isn't one already. Just a suggestion for the Mods!

Indeed, I'm aware that there's a lot of complexity around it and the last few posts have been interesting to read.

 

[Barnsley]

Just to add I also learnt about Conflict in Northern Ireland at GCSE level; perhaps we had a particularly enthusiastic teacher, as we also did the American West, Medicine through time and Britain's role in the Transatlantic Slave Trade.

I did exactly the same for GCSE History!

 

[Electrostar387]

I did exactly the same for GCSE History!

Good times!

Sadly, Reform UK would probably categorise all of these topics as too woke to teach in GCSE history these days were they to be in charge of the curriculum!

 

[Class73Electro]

I did exactly the same for GCSE History!

pretty sure I did too!

 

[Tetchytyke]

that's a big can of worms that does not need Reform's intervention

Sadly Reform and the TUV have been cuddling up to each other for quite a while now. He ultimately didn’t, but Jim Allister was very close to taking the Reform whip in London last year.

Ironic that their Brexit is the thing which has probably done more than anything else to strengthen Sinn Fein and make a united Ireland actually seem possible.

Though in this day and age no doubt some people would lose their minds ("HOW DARE THEY TEACH OUR CHILDREN THAT THE BRITISH ARMY WERE ANYTHING OTHER THAN SAINTLY ANGELS" - "HOW DARE THEY SUGGEST THAT GERRY ADAMS MIGHT HAVE BEEN A TERRORIST", delete accordingly) making it very difficult to actually teach anything.

This is the issue.

My view is that there needs to be a proper truth and reconciliation process, rather than using the legal system to try and settle scores, which is what is still happening. The problem with that, though, is that I also believe that the government and the intelligence services will use that process to hide what exactly that it was that they were getting up to.

And it’s not just the obvious stuff, in my opinion it is pretty obvious at this stage that the Dublin/Monaghan bombings and the Miami Showband murders were committed by and on the orders of the British Army. The extent of the infiltration into the IRA and what that looked like in the 90s would be interesting, I think the likes of Stakeknife are just the tip of the iceberg. I’ve long thought that the authorities knew about the Omagh bombing weeks in advance and, at the very least, allowed it to happen.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2026 ==

With Ulster roots proven back over 200 years I can't help noting that active church participation has dropped off enormously within my lifetime. Yet the old divide lines continue despite that.

It has. And Sinn Fein have acquired a lot of power by moving with the times in a way that the DUP/UUP/TUV simply haven’t.

In the South, Sinn Fein are presenting before the Dail a bill which would further cut the restrictions on abortion in the South. It’s working for them, in ten years they’ve gone from a niche party in the South to one of the biggest parties in Ireland. Same in the North.

Meanwhile, the new leader of the DUP is considered a wet liberal by his community because he doesn’t think gay people should be stoned to death, although obviously they shouldn’t be allowed to marry or be taught health and sexual safety at school. And the community wonder why they’re losing influence.

 

[berneyarms]

Nobody has the appetite to provide that attention, though. The BBC has been incredibly careful in its reporting to not draw any attention at all as to precisely which community in Northern Ireland is doing all the rioting.

The Unionists are losing their control in Northern Ireland and that is all this is really about. People moving to Northern Ireland from elsewhere in Europe and elsewhere in the world aren't interested in buying what the DUP are selling. Sinn Fein are now the biggest party on both sides of the Irish border as a result. Maybe a few more firebombings might encourage them to leave again...

You might want to recheck your numbers regarding Sinn Féin. They most certainly are not the largest party in the Dáil, the Irish parliament’s lower house.

They have 39 seats while Fianna Fáil have 48.

In the 2020 general election they won 37 seats while Fianna Fáil won 38.

They have never been the largest party and they did not exactly perform brilliantly in the two recent by-elections either.

 

[jupiter]

Visiting Belfast and Derry two years ago was a very moving experience. We found a beautiful land and two cities that have struggled to move forwards. Derry, I think, has made a better job of moving on. Belfast, and the people in it on the whole, still seems deeply divided to me. Maybe naively, we couldn’t understand at first the rather binary reaction to us. In one famous pub, which I’m not going to name, the staff were universally gruff and unwelcoming. Out on the street looking at a map for example, some people would be gushing with assistance for us.

When you finally catch sight of the kerb edges and lampposts in a particular area painted either red, white and blue or, green, white and orange, you realise the divisions are alive and well, being passed to the next generation and a constant reinforcement of the problems of the past.

I think Derry, or more specifically the people, need congratulating on moving forward, Belfast needs a kick up the bum.

 

[brad465]

I do find it ironic that The Orange Walk is an event where a bunch of known homophobes engage in a rather gay-looking activity (lots of guys marching together in colourful costumes).

 

[The exile]

I have an Irish first name and went to an English public school in the mid-1970s. The result was that I regularly had the shish kicked out of me for being one of Paisley’s IRA murderers,

Unless that’s an unfortunate slip - just goes to show how much they knew!