Settle–Carlisle Local Services, Pre–May 1970?

[Chrius56000]

It was 1986 when the present number of local stations on the S & C were re–opened by Ron Cotton (initially as an extension to "Dalesrail") to provide the current local stopping service, but my query refers to the pre 1970 local services before they were withdrawn for the first time leaving just Settle and Appleby open!

A book I once read about the S & C in Morecambe library said "The Midland Railway had always regarded the Settle and Carlisle as a means to an end, in even in the line's busiest heyday there were never more than five local services each way".

. . .The book went on to say "after being run by assorted tank engines, Class 9Fs and whatever was available at the time, the local services were taken over in September 1966 by two–car diesel multiple units".

During the four years of DMU operation before all the local stations closed for the first time in 1970, were these locals "skip–stop" like the E.C.M.L. Newcastle–Edinburgh locals, (Table 47) or did all trains serve all stations open during that period?

 

[308165]

All stopping services called everywhere. The service was composed of two Carlisle - Skipton services each way, a morning Appleby - Carlisle and evening return plus a single morning Garsdale - Leeds.

At some point in the late 60s and likely associated with all services being DMU worked was the extension of services from Hellifield to Skipton.

 

[D6130]

Initially the out-and-back working from Skipton was diagrammed for Accrington-based Craven's two car class 113 diesel-hydraulic units, interworking with the Skipton-Manchester Victoria services. However, as these units became increasingly prone to spontaneous combustion, Newton Heath-allocated class 105 and 108 units frequently substituted. The out-and-back working from Carlisle was diagrammed for a Kingmoor class 108 two car unit....complete with Cumbrian Coast window bars. (Source: Old hand Skipton drivers with whom I worked back in the 1990s).

 

[Chrius56000]

Can anyone furnish me with a timetable for the S & C's DMU period?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Anyone able to append a scan of the Leeds-Carlisle timetable from the late 1960s, even if it is just the one for midweek travel?

 

[30907]

Anyone able to append a scan of the Leeds-Carlisle timetable from the late 1960s, even if it is just the one for midweek travel?

Sorry, but the 1965 one is on timetableworld. It is steam era but after the closure of Saltaire etc and has the same basic pattern as described.

 

[308165]

May 1969 - May 1970 below for weekdays.

 

[jfollows]

Anyone able to append a scan of the Leeds-Carlisle timetable from the late 1960s, even if it is just the one for midweek travel?

A couple of steam trains still (Limited Load, for example), but mainly diesel & DMU.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@308165 @jfollows. Thanks both. Several stations not now open.

 

[thesignalman]

. . .The book went on to say "after being run by assorted tank engines, Class 9Fs and whatever was available at the time, the local services were taken over in September 1966 by two–car diesel multiple units".

I believe the tank engines were only diagrammed for shorts to Appleby and Garsdale. The full distance trains were worked by Black 5s from my memory of the time.

John

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Looks from the timetable extracts kindly provided that there were just two Northbound "all stations" D.M.U. services, operating between Skipton and Carlisle, back in the late 1960s, one late morning, and the second mid/late afternoon. Journey time around two-and-a-half hours. Passengers from Leeds or other stations south of Skipton would have needed to change there.

Nowadays more services, and a somewhat quicker journey time.

 

[nw1]

Looking at that timetable extract which service was Manchester-operated? Looks like the morning out-and-back would have been Carlisle operated but the 1633 from Skipton had no incoming working so presumably that one?
But would that have then laid over in Carlisle for almost a day to form the 1636 next day?

Interesting also to see some additional stations on the northern section that were never re-opened - but also south of Skipton the only open stations where Shipley, Bingley and Keighley. Also a very infrequent and irregular service on the line south of Skipton - even by 1982 this had improved to approximately 2tph Bradford-Keighley and 1tph Leeds-Skipton. Again only the above named stations were open. Of course in 1982, the Settle and Carlisle service was very basic and the intermediate stations were not served.

 

[MichaelAMW]

May 1969 - May 1970 below for weekdays.

I find it odd that the sleeper is from Euston, rather than St Pancras, and that the sleeping cars are only to/from Northampton. Was that a temporary diversion owing to some work on the MML?

 

[jfollows]

I find it odd that the sleeper is from Euston, rather than St Pancras, and that the sleeping cars are only to/from Northampton. Was that a temporary diversion owing to some work on the MML?

Search the forum, there’s quite a lot about this.
The sleeper was diverted from Saint Pancras to Euston 1970-1972, but the sleepers were only available as far south as Northampton even though there were regular coaches in the formation for seated passengers as well.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/thames-clyde-express-in-the-1970s.264956/page-3#post-6735267 for example

Thames-Clyde Express in the 1970's

Could anyone here point me to timetables for the named Thames-Clyde Express, through service from St Pancras to Glasgow and v/v, in the period from 1974 to 1979? What happened to it after that? At what point did the through daytime service (named or otherwise) on that route finally end? Also...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Merle Haggard]

Search the forum, there’s quite a lot about this.
The sleeper was diverted from Saint Pancras to Euston 1970-1972, but the sleepers were only available as far south as Northampton even though there were regular coaches in the formation for seated passengers as well.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/thames-clyde-express-in-the-1970s.264956/page-3#post-6735267 for example

Thames-Clyde Express in the 1970's

Could anyone here point me to timetables for the named Thames-Clyde Express, through service from St Pancras to Glasgow and v/v, in the period from 1974 to 1979? What happened to it after that? At what point did the through daytime service (named or otherwise) on that route finally end? Also...

www.railforums.co.uk

I'm pretty sure that you could book a sleeper from, say, Euston to Leeds or to Kilmarnock.
At Glasgow Central it was displayed as a train to Northampton, because of the availability of faster, direct trains. I think that it was shown at Euston as being to Glasgow, though.
The down evening service (21.00) was very useful for Northampton passengers as by far the fastest service of the evening. The Up morning service was usually late at Northampton and then ran Slow Line so not so advantageous.
I know a retired Nottingham driver who worked the Down service sometimes in his second man days. An unusual diagram - passenger to Market Harborough then walk to the 'bus station, catch a United Counties 'bus to Derngate, Northampton and walk to the railway station. Could be an unusual delay attribution United Counties bus no. 961 failed at Brixworth loss of coolant
I travelled on it a couple of times, in the sleeper. Does anyone know if it was slip working at Nottingham and Leeds (i.e. fresh loco) or ran round?

Edited because of my confusion with slip working

 

[Djgr]

It was 1986 when the present number of local stations on the S & C were re–opened by Ron Cotton (initially as an extension to "Dalesrail") to provide the current local stopping service

Mention of Ron Cotton reminds me that it is not always yes men who are the heroes.

 

[D6130]

Mention of Ron Cotton reminds me that it is not always yes men who are the heroes.

In my railway experience, yes men are rarely - if ever the heroes. (cf. Chris Green, Peter Rayner, Gordon Pettit, etc....plus numerous less-senior examples.)

 

[WesternLancer]

Interesting also to see some additional stations on the northern section that were never re-opened -

Yes.
I'm going on memory of things I've read over the years here so will stand corrected - I think this is all mixed up with the history of Dales Rail - and the earlier re-introduction of limited Dales Rail services to stations in the Yorks Dales National Park well before 1986 (in the mid 1970s?) - and the National Park paying for the platforms to be kept serviceable for these services - which meant they were relatively easy to re-opened in 1986 *
But the National Park boundary is just south of Appleby - so presumably north of Appleby there was no equivalent body to step in and ensure platforms were not cut back etc which then made it harder to do re-opening - plus there may have been less realistic passenger demand I suppose.

I think possibly some other stations that closed far earlier are missing from those late 1960s timetables (obviously) - easy to verify of course, but I've not checked

*EDIT - I found this on link below - text a speech given in 2014 explaining exactly what happened by one of the people who pulled it off! - really interesting to read in full - mixed up with the WCML electrification, Ramblers Association and all sort of work by people we clearly have much to thank for

And also explains that a bit later Cumbria County Council did financially support the re-opening of 3 stations on the northern section - so credit to them too.

The Settle Carlisle Line – Celebrating 25 years since its Reprieve | FoSCL

www.foscl.org.uk

I've copied a section of it here - my bolds

During an Easter 1973 hike with the West Riding Ramblers over Rapes Highway, between Littleborough and Marsden, sitting behind a drystone in the rain wall having lunch, two or three of us discussed the idea of the Ramblers actually chartering their own excursion train service from British Rail, just as the RA was now doing with its coaches.

It seemed a good idea, so we approached British Rail and received the quotation of £300 for a three coach train to call at three of the disused stations – Dent, Garsdale and Kirkby Stephen, before running on to Appleby. The West Riding Ramblers Association Executive Committee, but only on the casting vote of the Chairman, agreed to run a train and risk £300. We needed 200 passengers to cover our costs. Within days every ticket was sold and we had to go back to BR and ask for more coaches until eventually with 500 tickets sold and 9 coaches filled we had to call a halt and turn people away. The Ramblers made a clear profit of £300 on the day.

It seemed that at very least Ramblers Specials could become an annual or even twice annual event.

But we then came across what can best be described as the Dead Hand of Bureaucracy with a decision that defied all logic. Because the line was going to be used a diversionary route during West Coast electrification, then the platforms of the disused intermediate stations were to have all their platform edge stones removed in case one would work loose and damage one of the new Mark 3 coaches used on the diverted express trains. This would prevent – probably forever – any future use of the stations for walkers’ trains.

By happy coincidence I had at that time been appointed onto the newly created Yorkshire Dales National Park Committee, and was able to get myself on a working committee with local Councillors in the autumn of 1974 to see what opportunity there might be to repeat the success of the RA 1974 special.

Fortunately I had an ally within the local BR maintenance teams, whose Area Engineer reckoned that the platforms could be “made safe” for around £1,500- £2,000 per station to allow them to be used for occasional charter services like the Ramblers Specials. Thankfully his bosses agreed and BR took what was a small but decisive step forward. The new National Park Committee agreed £5,000 to finance the repair of Horton, Ribblehead, and Dent platform edges whilst Cumbria chipped in £500 towards Garsdale – which was actually in very good nick.

Having got the National Park to spend money to save the platforms, it was then not a huge leap of imagination to suggest that there was no point in saving platforms if no trains called there. Prices for a pilot service of trains operating on three weekends, Saturday and Sundays between Leeds and Appleby were agreed with British Rail in Leeds. Thanks to great support from National Park Committee Chairman Keith Lockyer and Park Officer Richard Harvey, £2,000 was allocated to cover the cost of trains and a further £200 for publicity. Everything else, including the guided walks and stewarding the trains – and this was a sign of things to come – had to be done by volunteers.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I think possibly some other stations that closed far earlier are missing from those late 1960s timetables (obviously) - easy to verify of course, but I've not checked

Think the various, now no longer open, stations, on the line between Skipton and Carlisle, were...

• Bell Busk (closed May 1959);
• Crosby Garrett (closed October 1952);
• Ormside (closed June 1952);
• Long Martin (closed May 1970);
• New Biggin (closed May 1970);
• Culgaith (closed May 1970);
• Little Salkeld (closed May 1970);
• Cotehill (closed April 1952);
• Cumwhinton (closed November 1956);
• Scotby (closed February 1942).

Apologies if I've missed any! Can someone confirm the above?

 

[The exile]

Yes.
I'm going on memory of things I've read over the years here so will stand corrected - I think this is all mixed up with the history of Dales Rail - and the earlier re-introduction of limited Dales Rail services to stations in the Yorks Dales National Park well before 1986 (in the mid 1970s?) - and the National Park paying for the platforms to be kept serviceable for these services - which meant they were relatively easy to re-opened in 1986 *
But the National Park boundary is just south of Appleby - so presumably north of Appleby there was no equivalent body to step in (or willing to step in) and ensure platforms were not cut back etc which then made it harder to do re-opening - plus there may have been less realistic passenger demand I suppose.

I think possibly some other stations that closed far earlier are missing from those late 1960s timetables (obviously) - easy to verify of course, but I've not checked

*EDIT - I found this on link below - text a speech given in 2014 explaining exactly what happened by one of the people who pulled it off! - really interesting to read in full - mixed up with the WCML electrification, Ramblers Association and all sort of work by people we clearly have much to thank for

The Settle Carlisle Line – Celebrating 25 years since its Reprieve | FoSCL

www.foscl.org.uk

I've copied a section of it here - my bolds

The other three survivors are realistically the only ones which a) have a local population of any size immediately at hand and b) aren’t so close to Carlisle as to make a sparse service pointless. Unfortunately the northerners doesn’t have quite the same “pull” for walkers.

 

[WesternLancer]

Think the various, now no longer open, stations, on the line between Skipton and Carlisle, were...

• Bell Busk (closed May 1959);
• Crosby Garrett (closed October 1952);
• Ormside (closed June 1952);
• Long Martin (closed May 1970);
• New Biggin (closed May 1970);
• Culgaith (closed May 1970);
• Little Salkeld (closed May 1970);
• Cotehill (closed April 1952);
• Cumwhinton (closed November 1956);
• Scotby (closed February 1942).

Apologies if I've missed any! Can someone confirm the above?

Thanks. More closures than I thought pre 1970.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2026 ==

The other three survivors are realistically the only ones which a) have a local population and b) aren’t so close to Carlisle as to make a sparse service pointless. Unfortunately the northerners doesn’t have quite the same “pull” for walkers.

Thanks.

 

[D6130]

Think the various, now no longer open, stations, on the line between Skipton and Carlisle, were...

• Bell Busk (closed May 1959);
• Crosby Garrett (closed October 1952);
• Ormside (closed June 1952);
• Long Martin (closed May 1970);
• New Biggin (closed May 1970);
• Culgaith (closed May 1970);
• Little Salkeld (closed May 1970);
• Cotehill (closed April 1952);
• Cumwhinton (closed November 1956);
• Scotby (closed February 1942).

Apologies if I've missed any! Can someone confirm the above?

Correct....but Long Martin should read Long Marton. (Assumed autocorrect error! ).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Correct....but Long Martin should read Long Marton. (Assumed autocorrect error! ).

Good spot!

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a gentle reminder that this thread is to discuss Settle–Carlisle Local Services, Pre–May 1970.

I have split off some posts that were discussing Northampton to Market Harborough to this thread:

Northampton-Market Harborough line

Moderator note - split from: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/settle%E2%80%93carlisle-local-services-pre%E2%80%93may-1970.303344/ Search the forum, there’s quite a lot about this. The sleeper was diverted from Saint Pancras to Euston 1970-1972, but the sleepers were only available as far...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[InkyScrolls]

Think the various, now no longer open, stations, on the line between Skipton and Carlisle, were...

• Bell Busk (closed May 1959);
• Crosby Garrett (closed October 1952);
• Ormside (closed June 1952);
• Long Marton (closed May 1970);
• New Biggin (closed May 1970);
• Culgaith (closed May 1970);
• Little Salkeld (closed May 1970);
• Cotehill (closed April 1952);
• Cumwhinton (closed November 1956);
• Scotby (closed February 1942).

Apologies if I've missed any! Can someone confirm the above?

All correct. It's a real shame Culgaith has never reopened; it has a decent enough population to warrant a station.