Network SouthEast 40 Year Anniversary

[35B]

It’s so easy to buy into a cult idea, especially a one that’s been dead for more than three times as long as it’s brief life.
It’s also so easy to forget that many positive developments were achieved previously. For example, the Hastings electrification, East Grinstead, Thameslink, North London Line to North Woolwich had been done or were under way. Even Bournemouth to Weymouth electrification was ready to go at the start of 1986.
Southampton Airport Parkway and the start on Driver Only Operation were other examples of significant developments. Other people had worked in such a way that NSE could hit the ground running.

It was a very successful marketing exercise, only possible because of the previous good work. It also turbocharged that work and helped move BR forward significantly in the late 80s.

 

[jfollows]

Free parking at weekends was a big deal for me.
I lived in Clanfield (nowhere near a station) in 1986 or so, and drove to Petersfield to go to London, either after work on weekdays or at weekends. I also remember going to Southampton Airport from Fareham, and to Winchester from Clanfield. Weekdays I managed to find on street parking in Petersfield. But weekends were easy.
At some point this offer was dropped, but by then I’d move away from the NSE area anyway.

 

[Merle Haggard]

It was a very successful marketing exercise, only possible because of the previous good work. It also turbocharged that work and helped move BR forward significantly in the late 80s.

I am fairly sure that NSE turned a profit for a few years.

 

[yorksrob]

It was a very successful marketing exercise, only possible because of the previous good work. It also turbocharged that work and helped move BR forward significantly in the late 80s.

It's an interesting point. Could the LSE have eventually have had the same impact ? On paper the livery was wonderful, as was the interior refurbishment.

I think NSE's big bang moment helped to provide the impact with the public, whereas the LSE brand never got a big bang moment.

Both fondly remembered though.

 

[35B]

It's an interesting point. Could the LSE have eventually have had the same impact ? On paper the livery was wonderful, as was the interior refurbishment.

I think NSE's big bang moment helped to provide the impact with the public, whereas the LSE brand never got a big bang moment.

Both fondly remembered though.

LSE was a new livery, but had no cut-through in the wider public imagination. NSE was a genuine brand, and did really well by comparison.

The difference between the two was huge, even though I probably preferred the Jaffa Cake livery.

 

[yorksrob]

LSE was a new livery, but had no cut-through in the wider public imagination. NSE was a genuine brand, and did really well by comparison.

The difference between the two was huge, even though I probably preferred the Jaffa Cake livery.

I think that's my take on it. Although @Dr Hoo is absolutely right that the network was developing at the time previously as well.

The nascent LSE brand lasted well past NSE - I remember travelling on very smart EPB's and CIG's with donkey stripe moquette well into the NSE era.

I think @Dr Hoo is particularly right in that if you look at a lot of pictures of BR in the 1980's a lot of it looks run down. This wasn't the case of the Southern where Ashford, Tonbridge, Canterbury West etc were very well kept at the time - NSE made them look a lot more cheerful though.

 

[Helvellyn]

The vast majority of units in the Jaffa Cake livery were Class 411 (4CEP) units.

The only other classes to receive it were some Class 309s and 421s (4CIGs) upon their respective refurbishments, plus some of the Class 419 Motor Luggage Vans (MLVs), the latter presumably to match the 4CEPs they usually worked with.

I can't find the image there were mock-up pictures of the 442s in Jaffa Cake, although the front end wasn't the finished article (which suited NSE livery).

LSE was actually meant to have three liveries, a bit like South West Trains did. Jaffa Cake was the long distance livery and there were supposed to be a blue variant for outer suburban units and a green variant for inner suburban units.

The nearest we saw of the other variants was in the use of the matching donkey stripe moquette on certain units that were still in blue & grey. I know some EPBs and 305/4 units got the green inner suburban moquette.

I found the green - https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1C928eUdvn/

 

[yorksrob]

I can't find the image there were mock-up pictures of the 442s in Jaffa Cake, although the front end wasn't the finished article (which suited NSE livery).

LSE was actually meant to have three liveries, a bit like South West Trains did. Jaffa Cake was the long distance livery and there were supposed to be a blue variant for outer suburban units and a green variant for inner suburban units.

The nearest we saw of the other variants was in the use of the matching donkey stripe moquette on certain units that were still in blue & grey. I know some EPBs and 305/4 units got the green inner suburban moquette.

I found the green - https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1C928eUdvn/

View attachment 205906

Yes, I like the green variant. Been on a few EPB's with that.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

On the Southern I believe EPBs 5476-5497 and all of 6401-6418 were trimmed with the green donkey stripe moquette. I was at Eastleigh Works when 5497 was being done. Looked lovely

 

[Jaydubya]

NSE also had excellent Edward Pond murals inside the new Class 321 trains.

 

[JonathanH]

NSE also had excellent Edward Pond murals inside the new Class 321 trains.

And indeed all new and refurbished trains.

 

[Merle Haggard]

NSE also had excellent Edward Pond murals inside the new Class 321 trains.

Only in the First Class.
They were by 'Eddie Pond' in the standard...

 

[JonathanH]

Only in the First Class.
They were by 'Eddie Pond' in the standard...

I think all the early applications were 'Eddie Pond'. Certainly his 1987 work in the Mark 2 carriages for the Cambridge / Kings Lynn route, that later found themselves on Oxford workings. However, the final applications, to the Turbo and Networker fleet showing local landmarks on the respective routes were signed off as Edward Pond.

Edward Pond died in 2012, and there are some recollections here.
https://www.rennart.co.uk/pond.html

Edward recalls the commission from Jane Priestman, a director of British Rail, to do some railway carriage designs, with only 3 days to complete the presentation and no brief! "Originally the train was the 319, making a new route from Luton to Brighton but the 442, Waterloo to Bournemouth, muscled in. As a result suddenly there was more work to do and I became, but not officially, Designer to Network South East. All new trains had designs, old trains were refurbished, waiting rooms had new designs, on top of this there was all the route branding to do, as well as the venue posters".

 

[Merle Haggard]

I think all the early applications were 'Eddie Pond'. Certainly his 1987 work in the Mark 2 carriages for the Cambridge / Kings Lynn route, that later found themselves on Oxford workings. However, the final applications, to the Turbo and Networker fleet showing local landmarks on the respective routes were signed off as Edward Pond.

Edward Pond died in 2012, and there are some recollections here.
https://www.rennart.co.uk/pond.html

Thanks; although the 'Northampton Line' class 321 were delivered with the murals it was only recently that I noticed the variation, because I only travelled in one class. The Class 319s that LM acquired towards the end of their lives retained (mostly) First and these seemed to have the variation where the murals (Thames-link orientated, obviously) were still visible. As an aside, I was surprised that some class 319 still had them after so long. sadly they went for scrap still carrying them.

 

[Bald Rick]

To be fair, Jaffa Cake was around for a long time in Kent on the CEP's (or at least it seemed that way to my youthful eyes).

Yes it feels thst way to me too,but bet it was only a couple of years.

I can't find the image there were mock-up pictures of the 442s in Jaffa Cake, although the front end wasn't the finished article (which suited NSE livery).

Front cover of Modern Railways in about November 1985 has it.

 

[Helvellyn]

Front cover of Modern Railways in about November 1985 has it.

Thanks, found it on ebay - December 1985.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks, found it on ebay - December 1985.
View attachment 205925

I read that sticker as $320, and thought for a moment I was sitting under a goldmine in the loft!

 

[The exile]

It was a very successful marketing exercise, only possible because of the previous good work. It also turbocharged that work and helped move BR forward significantly in the late 80s.

It was also an example of how a few “touches” in the right place (lampposts and benches) could quickly give the impression that “something was happening” very quickly (and cheaply), while the real “somethings” were taking their time. The downside was that it quickly eliminated traces of former eras (I remember the huge 60s era running-in board at West Ruislip in early 1987, but that must have gone pretty soon afterwards)

 

[yorksrob]

It was also an example of how a few “touches” in the right place (lampposts and benches) could quickly give the impression that “something was happening” very quickly (and cheaply), while the real “somethings” were taking their time. The downside was that it quickly eliminated traces of former eras (I remember the huge 60s era running-in board at West Ruislip in early 1987, but that must have gone pretty soon afterwards)

Yes, all of those timbered South Eastern station buildings in Kent were an historic loss (although there are still a couple that survived).

 

[The exile]

Yes, all of those timbered South Eastern station buildings in Kent were an historic loss (although there are still a couple that survived).

Were they specifically lost to the NSE image or just because they’d been left to rot for too long?

 

[brad465]

Pity Southeastern haven't done another railtour featuring 465908 to mark this anniversary (and/or 73128), in the same way they did one last year to mark Railway 200 (although that particular railtour was not very adventurous).

 

[yorksrob]

Were they specifically lost to the NSE image or just because they’d been left to rot for too long?

The ones that remain at Pluckley and Hildenborough have scrubbed up niceley, so presumably the others could have. Thinking Headcorn and Marden.

Conversely, they did a nice refurbishment of the one at Ore - then hoodlums burned it down.

 

[JacobB2004]

Too young unfortunately for when NSE was around, but found this picture of my local station in the 1990s with its NSE branding. So much better than today's neutral signage.

 

[WesternLancer]

Too young unfortunately for when NSE was around, but found this picture of my local station in the 1990s with its NSE branding. So much better than today's neutral signage.

View attachment 208395

A nice clear shot!

 

[JacobB2004]

A nice clear shot!

I know right! Thought it wasn't real at first haha

 

[JBuchananGB]

Here's a souvenir from 30 years ago.

I have my BR issued Photocard to support this Network Card. I wonder if it would be valid nowadays. I do have a lot less hair now.

 

[JacobB2004]

Just purchased these vintage NSE uniform items from eBay.

Very much looking forward to showing these off when I'm out and about!



(NSE Customer Service Pin Badge & Logo Tie)

 

[WesternLancer]

Just purchased these vintage NSE uniform items from eBay.

Very much looking forward to showing these off when I'm out and about!

View attachment 208567View attachment 208568

(NSE Customer Service Pin Badge & Logo Tie)

Great find

 

[JacobB2004]

Great find

Thank you!