The blanket coverage in terms of reception most definitely isn’t 100% - and I doubt there are opportunities to charge phones at many stations.
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ScotRail to introduce £10 minimum fare for those not buying before boarding
- Thread starter kkong
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I'm not sure I get the link. Reception sounds reasonable, till you think that with a paper ticket you also need to make sure that you have the ticket accessible when required - the phone equivalent for which is putting it in a wallet app, whoch works offline.
Similarly having a charged phone is the equivalent of being able to access a ticket wallet and carry payment with you. It's not an especially onerous requirement, just as having the right cash or card at the station isn't that onerous.
That said, I (in the 16-24 range) do not feel comfortable using my (smart) phone for things such as payments and tickets. This is not because of technophobia but rather because my phone is rather old (5 years+) and, whilst relatively stable and reliable, I wouldn't want to be completely dependant on it working immediately at a certain moment. While many people (especially 16-24) will admittedly have a newer/fancier phone, I doubt it is anywhere near the "100%" of 16-24 year olds who have a "smartphone" of any kind.
I’m talking about the ability to buy the ticket in the first place, where the paper ticket equivalent would be like putting up a little notice on a station platform telling people they must have a ticket to travel - these are available from the newsagent’s half a mike away up a steep hill. Your analogy assumes people are always able to book tickets in advance from a place they know they have reception. As far as the charged phone is concerned - the analogy with means to pay doesn’t work - unless we’re in such inflationary times that the “sufficient cash” you had when setting off is no longer sufficient by the time you come to buy your ticket in the evening. In other words, a phone charge is not static and may well drop by far more than you anticipate - especially if you’re struggling to get reception.
On the continent this situation is not unusual... I have seen it in Italy and Sweden, and I think it applies in several others.
That may or may not be the case (it also used to apply at Dilton Marsh) - though I would hope it would be noted in timetables so that people realise they have to turn up 20 minutes in advance. With poor mobile reception the situation is of course worse - because you don't know where you're going to find enough reception to complete a transaction.
Certainly true-the worst is app only car parks with poor/no signal and ANPR...
You can use your bank card to buy a ticket at a Scotrail TVM. If it isn't working they will sell you a ticket on board. You can even buy a ticket on your phone at home, or somewhere where you have good reception, and then go to the station. You don't need to use a phone to travel with Scotrail, but most people seem to manage.
The two Scotrail stations I have not been able to get a signal are Tulloch and Tyndrum Lower. Neither have a TVM.
Their Buy Before you Board policy still mentions a Promise to Pay if you want to pay by cash at a TVM. I might have a look at their TVMs to see if that's working yet.
There is nothing to stop them operating Promise to Pay or similar.
Again, I'm not saying that they should abandon paper tickets. I'm just making the point that since the vast majority of people have access to phones, and those phones will have a suitable signal to allow paying for a ticket in the vast majority of locations (most networks have something like >95% geographical coverage) that it's not unreasonable to make the assumption that people will be able to do so, and deal with the instances where they cannot as the exception.
Moderator note - we don’t need to have another smartphone v paper ticket v e-ticket debate. We’ve already had another ones of these recently.
Can we stay on-topic which is to discuss Scotrail’s introduction of a £10 minimum fare for people who don’t buy before they board.
Can we stay on-topic which is to discuss Scotrail’s introduction of a £10 minimum fare for people who don’t buy before they board.
redreni
Established Member
As with any TOC that wants to penalise passengers for not buying before boarding, whether people agree or not, it is up to them to provide a way for the passenger to buy the ticket they require (not just any old ticket - this point was clarified in passengers' favour in the November 2025 round of changes to the NRCoT ) before they board.
It's not up to the customer to provide the hardware to enable that ticket purchase to take place. They can if they wish, but they don't have to.
I would prefer it if TOCs would stick to the sanctions available to them under the NRCoT, rather than invent alternative sanctions, if people do not buy before boarding when they could have.
They should also think harder about how their staff are expected to ascertain if facilities existed for the customer to buy the ticket they require before boarding. I don't know what Scotrail does? Southeastern RPIs appear to have been told to assume that if the TVM (there's normally only one) at the boarding station is working to the best of Control's knowledge, then the customer could have bought the ticket they require before boarding. That's not right.
It's not up to the customer to provide the hardware to enable that ticket purchase to take place. They can if they wish, but they don't have to.
I would prefer it if TOCs would stick to the sanctions available to them under the NRCoT, rather than invent alternative sanctions, if people do not buy before boarding when they could have.
They should also think harder about how their staff are expected to ascertain if facilities existed for the customer to buy the ticket they require before boarding. I don't know what Scotrail does? Southeastern RPIs appear to have been told to assume that if the TVM (there's normally only one) at the boarding station is working to the best of Control's knowledge, then the customer could have bought the ticket they require before boarding. That's not right.
Belperpete
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While that may be true for urban areas, it certainly isn't for rural areas. Where I live in Wales, there are significant areas and even some notable towns where I have no mobile signal. Trying to buy my train ticket on the bus is quite a fraught and nail bitting exercise, as I am constantly dreading losing mobile signal at a vital point in the purchase. I should imagine the same applies in many areas that ScotRail covers.
And there is also a big difference between buying a ticket, and being in possession of that ticket. There are a lot of tickets that aren't available in e-ticket form, such as all cross-London tickets for example. Are ScotRail guards able to print such tickets? TfW guards can't, which means that for most of the journeys I make, I can't obtain the ticket before I board or even on the train! Fortunately TfW seem to be quite accepting of this.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Posts above seem to suggest it will comply with the NRCoT by setting the Anytime Day Single fare to £10 where it is less, but keeping the (unrestricted) Off Peak Day Single/Return as they are. The approach to which is sold when would be the same as it is in other non Penalty Fares locations.
This is slightly confusing, though, so I wonder if some renaming of ticket types might happen.
redreni
Established Member
Well, they're stretching a point, because the reality is the full, undiscounted fare in Scotland is now the off-peak.
If they create a new fare solely for the purpose of penalising people for not paying before boarding, whatever they call it, that's not the "full, undiscounted" fare, that's a penalty fare. For it to be the "full, undiscounted single fare" as per 9.2.1 NRCoT, there would need to be a circumstance in which it would be charged other than to penalise somebody.
All the above is in my humble opinion, of course. Not legal advice.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yet this is exactly how Edinburgh Trams do it. The standard fare is £10 and you are allowed to board and pay this if you want - you might choose to if you're about to miss your flight for example. A discounted fare is offered before boarding at the TVM or using tap in tap out.
It appears to comply with the NRCoT's wording too.
I would disagree- the full undiscounted single fare still exists for anyone who wishes to pay it. The abolition of time restrictions on the discounted fare has merely meant that there has been no need to ever buy it - until next month.
Belperpete
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I very much doubt that renaming ticket types will happen, as everything now seems to be frozen in aspic since privatisation, with new ticket types having to be shoe horned into existing definitions. As per flexible advances having to be classed as Advances, with totally inappropriate messages about ticket validity.
Are ScotRail TVMs the type that journey plan? Because anyone who plans their journey in advance will get offered the off peak fare as standard. It is only those who buy on board that will get charged the anytime fare.
No, as far as I know they use S&B TVMs that have the old non journey planning interface (with the possible exception of the trial machine at Glasgow Central that issues E-tickets).
redreni
Established Member
People could choose to buy 10 tickets when they only need one, thus paying 10 times the prevailing fare, but that doesn't mean if they only buy one ticket they're getting a discount. The off-peak single in Scotland is not a discounted fare.
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Edinburgh trams are not constrained by the NRCoT, though.
If ScotRail want to operate a penalty fares scheme I wouldn't object, provided of course they met all the requirements for a penalty fares scheme operator.
I don't agree with them inventing a punitive fare and trying to make out it is the "full, undiscounted single fare" as per the NRCoT, when it isn't.
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thedbdiboy
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They can't, though. There is no provision for Penalty Fares in Scots law.
In which case, they need to persuade the Scottish government to legislate for one.
I don’t have much issue with the proposal, but it does occur to me from what @redreni writes that I’m not clear if the base fare that will be used is a regulated fare in any way? If it is, there is surely a question of the legality of the fare rise required to make this happen
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Why is there such strong support for fare evasion here, or at least seemingly so?
What's the actual problem with this proposal? ScotRail will clearly have done appropriate work to ensure it is legal, and it is comparable to the Edinburgh Trams approach.
What's the actual problem with this proposal? ScotRail will clearly have done appropriate work to ensure it is legal, and it is comparable to the Edinburgh Trams approach.
The passenger offering cash is entitled to buy the off-peak fare on board - with or without Promise to Pay (6.1.1). An implementation of Promise to Pay has to be incorporated into the contract *somehow* and my question is what legalese they are going to use to do this.
A passenger buying an off-peak ticket on their phone after boarding may have a valid ticket. (If the contractual provision deeming it to be invalid in these circumstances had been made clear, as it necessarily has to be, at the point of purchase, a correctly-informed consumer would not have made that worthless purchase, indicating that such a provision may well be considered unenforceable and the purchased ticket deemed valid in line with the consumer's reasonable expectations.)
I also wouldn't agree that Off-Peak can be counted as "discounted" - it is the full fare.
Why would Scotrail risk taking short-cuts open to legal challenge rather than create a watertight system?
To Bletchleyite's point - this isn't about supporting fare evasion. It's about wanting to see evidence that this scheme will be implemented in a way that is legally watertight and fully enforceable. Flush out any potential loopholes *beforehand* so there's time to close them prior to implementation!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Is that really that much of an issue, though? The "neds"* at whom this is largely aimed are hardly going to be mounting legal challenges. Most of them are probably barely literate enough to start posting about it in Disputes!
* Scottish word for scally/chav.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
But only if cash is their only available method of payment:
"a self-service Ticket machine was not in working order, or would not accept your only available method of payment (card or cash)"
How can you know if a self-service Ticket machine would not accept your cash payment unless you try and buy a ticket with cash? If you try and buy a ticket with cash it will spit out a Promise to Pay.
It is no more or less punitive than any other situation where the TOC treats the Anytime fare as the "full, undiscounted single fare" at a time when an off-peak ticket would be valid.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Because if it hasn't got a slot for coins and notes it's more than a bit obvious that it doesn't take cash?
Being blunt, I am not confident given the performance of too many TOCs that Scotrail will have done their legal homework.
I support the concept but lack the trust to be confident that it will work as intended
I'm of the belief that if catches even 10% of people who would otherwise have travelled ticketless then it will have paid for itself. I mean, what has it cost - some posters and an update to the T&Cs file on a web server?
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
To an extent it may just be a case of "if a given ned gets caught on 1 in 4 journeys, they're paying what they would have paid if they had paid each time" I reckon.
It's not perfect but no scheme is.