2024 Tube Stock (Siemens Inspiro London)

[Thirteen]

They look really impressive, interesting that Andy Lord seems confident that a Bakerloo follow on order will happen.

 

[Recessio]

They look really impressive, interesting that Andy Lord seems confident that a Bakerloo follow on order will happen.

Indeed, especially as he said the government funding has been confirmed (which I didn't realise). I doubt he would be saying that publicly unless he was confident, so fingers crossed it's good news soon

 

[Alxxxs]

Any testing today due to works on Picadilly line?

 

[Wolfie]

Indeed, especially as he said the government funding has been confirmed (which I didn't realise). I doubt he would be saying that publicly unless he was confident, so fingers crossed it's good news soon

Southwark Council confirm online the funding from HMG as part of a four year settlement. They also state that it will enable TfL to exercise time-limited options in the current Siemens contract.

 

[GFE]

Wonder how the bakerloo line train delivery/blockade fits in with the 4 yr funding window. Judging by the experience of the PLU, the BLU infrastructure works contracts need to get into gear v soon.

 

[Geogregor]

Wonder how the bakerloo line train delivery/blockade fits in with the 4 yr funding window. Judging by the experience of the PLU, the BLU infrastructure works contracts need to get into gear v soon.

Constructing of the trains should be much quicker and easier than for the Piccadilly Line. Most of the tricky design and development will be basically done. The question is how much infrastructure works need to be done.

 

[Wolfie]

Constructing of the trains should be much quicker and easier than for the Piccadilly Line. Most of the tricky design and development will be basically done. The question is how much infrastructure works need to be done.

Re your second sentence, yes and no given how unique, courtesy of historical legacy, each of the tube lines seems to be. I imagine that the answer to your last sentence is at least as much as the Picc, particularly if they do any preparation work for the extension.

 

[Silent]

They look really impressive, interesting that Andy Lord seems confident that a Bakerloo follow on order will happen.

I wonder what the caution sticker is for at 2:28 around the interconnecting gangway section.

 

[Mikey C]

Re your second sentence, yes and no given how unique, courtesy of historical legacy, each of the tube lines seems to be. I imagine that the answer to your last sentence is at least as much as the Picc, particularly if they do any preparation work for the extension.

The extension will be years away, so I doubt they'll do much work they don't have to, just the bare minimum to get the new trains into service.

 

[Thirteen]

I assume with the extension, they'll just order variants of the 2024 stock unless they think 36 trains will be enough.

 

[Snow1964]

I assume with the extension, they'll just order variants of the 2024 stock unless they think 36 trains will be enough.

Yes Bakerloo sets are virtually same, just things like different colour handrails.

The proposed version for Central line are an 11car (rather than 9car) with slightly shorter vehicles.

The Piccadilly line still has options, so far have ordered enough to increase service from 24 trains per hour to 27tph. But if and when resignalling takes place, might be more trains to allow 36tph.

Similarly on Bakerloo, trains might be ordered in 2 batches, an initial order (straight replacement of existing fleet), and subsequently more, if and when Lewisham extension is authorised.

The TfL Board papers (Investment Committee) even give a financial split of the Bakerloo upgrade expenditure planned over next 4-5 years. Does seem to be going ahead (but without fanfare), although this low key approach might be deliberate not to antagonise other parts of country that have seen new stations, upgrades and electrification funding axed.

 

[A60stock]

How would re signalling on the Bakerloo work? I assume it would be Queens Park to E&H which is resignalled to ATO, with the line North of Queens Park remaining as is due to this not being in LU's control

 

[Dstock7080]

How would re signalling on the Bakerloo work? I assume it would be Queens Park to E&H which is resignalled to ATO, with the line North of Queens Park remaining as is due to this not being in LU's control

That would be the logical separation.
There is no funding for resignalling the Bakerloo, or indeed the Piccadilly so far.
2024TS don't currently have any ATO kit, apart from pre-prepared cab switches etc.

 

[A60stock]

Absolutely. Although I assume resignalling on the Piccadilly will come at some point, perhaps after a good 10 years in service (As was the case for the very earliest of the S Stock).

Does the Bakerloo really need to be re signalled? Is the demand justified?

 

[JCO1406]

Does the Bakerloo really need to be re signalled? Is the demand justified?

Maybe not at the moment, but once the extension happens, i can see the need. It might also be an idea to resignal the Lionesses line to allow more bakerloo trains beyond queen’s park.

 

[Snow1964]

Absolutely. Although I assume resignalling on the Piccadilly will come at some point, perhaps after a good 10 years in service (As was the case for the very earliest of the S Stock).

Does the Bakerloo really need to be re signalled? Is the demand justified?

Is the question does it need doing as worn out, or is it to boost capacity.

I have forgotten exact percentages now, but for Piccadilly line was stated as part of new trains justification, would give around 11% capacity boost from new train type, 12% from raising 24 to 27 trains per hour and another 33% if resignalled and upto 36tph. Compounding the percentage capacity of all three changes is about 168% capacity compared to now.

I do not know how much growth Bakerloo will need (unless line is extended), but bear in mind before the Jubilee line took over Baker Street - Stanmore, was operating at nearer 29tph on Baker Street - Elephant section. Unless the signalling has been rationalised in recent years then could be a frequency increase on this section without resignalling (although not practical whilst capacity Baker Street - Queens Park isn't raised to match it)

 

[Stratford581]

There needs to be some minor resignalling in the King's Cross area on the west in order to realise 27tph.

 

[Wolfie]

Is the question does it need doing as worn out, or is it to boost capacity.

I have forgotten exact percentages now, but for Piccadilly line was stated as part of new trains justification, would give around 11% capacity boost from new train type, 12% from raising 24 to 27 trains per hour and another 33% if resignalled and upto 36tph. Compounding the percentage capacity of all three changes is about 168% capacity compared to now.

I do not know how much growth Bakerloo will need (unless line is extended), but bear in mind before the Jubilee line took over Baker Street - Stanmore, was operating at nearer 29tph on Baker Street - Elephant section. Unless the signalling has been rationalised in recent years then could be a frequency increase on this section without resignalling (although not practical whilst capacity Baker Street - Queens Park isn't raised to match it)

Hate to scare you but your last para refers to what happened around 50 years ago. As far as l know precious little has been done to the signalling since. That provides no real basis for going forward.

 

[GFE]

I believe the Bakerloo signaling control and information system has been replaced very recently (which was a big obsolescence concern).
The condition/risks are regularly assessed (including any necessary control measures) and signed off by the responsible/accountable "minds" group.
I think more funding was released a few years ago for other measures to manage Obsolescence & deterioration in cabling and track circuits.
I am sure Siemens will be very interested in the signaling/ATO provision for 24 stock equipped lines (but have had their fingers burnt with a lot of expense on previous aborted/unsuccessful proposals - more Partnership/framework agreements like the Central line upgrade?)

 

[Dstock7080]

38009-48009 moved from Goole to Old Dalby test facility yesterday.
The fourth train assembled at Goole

 

[Silent]

Maybe not at the moment, but once the extension happens, i can see the need. It might also be an idea to resignal the Lionesses line to allow more bakerloo trains beyond queen’s park.

Tbh I don’t see why the lioness line would even be hard to signal to ato type signal as it’s separated like a tube line

 

[GFE]

Do you think LUL might base any Bak line signalling replacement strategy on Network Rail digital railway/ETCS systems? (so that interrunning North of Queens Park is easier ie trains & trackside wouldn't have to be dual equipped)

 

[zwk500]

Tbh I don’t see why the lioness line would even be hard to signal to ato type signal as it’s separated like a tube line

Lioness line has junctions with other NR lines at Watford Jn, Willesden Jn, Camden Jn, and shares lines B and C into Euston. The NR lines will at some point be converted to ETCS L2.
You could conceivably remove the Watford crossover but there's still the Willesden Jn interface (for the connection to Mildmay Line and the Depot) and interface between Queen's Park and Camden Jn.

Do you think LUL might base any Bak line signalling replacement strategy on Network Rail digital railway/ETCS systems?

The decision will need to consider if ETCS L2 can provide the necessary capacity on the Bakerloo (I suspect it can't), whether ETCS L3 (or what was L3, I think it's now been merged into L2) will be sufficiently developed by that point (unlikely, but you never know) for Tube AND LO, and if neither of those are true, what the easiest transition between the chosen CBTC system and ETCS L2 is.

 

[Snow1964]

Lioness line has junctions with other NR lines at Watford Jn, Willesden Jn, Camden Jn, and shares lines B and C into Euston. The NR lines will at some point be converted to ETCS L2.
You could conceivably remove the Watford crossover but there's still the Willesden Jn interface (for the connection to Mildmay Line and the Depot) and interface between Queen's Park and Camden Jn.

The decision will need to consider if ETCS L2 can provide the necessary capacity on the Bakerloo (I suspect it can't), whether ETCS L3 (or what was L3, I think it's now been merged into L2) will be sufficiently developed by that point (unlikely, but you never know) for Tube AND LO, and if neither of those are true, what the easiest transition between the chosen CBTC system and ETCS L2 is.

ECTS Level2 has been used for 110 second headways in Switzerland.

Thats 32.7 trains per hour, so should comfortably handle a mix of say 20 Bakerloo and Overground trains per hour north of Queens Park

 

[GFE]

I would hope that there is a reasonable expectation that there would be an upgrade path from ECTS L2 to newer version (L3 or "L2metro")
I thought the significant existing constraint was the Radio comms type & associated speed - which I thought was obsolete and hence a priority for change/re-spec.

I also thought I heard it mentioned in an Eliz line presentation that the Siemens trainbourne "signals box" is capable of running both systems (eg trainguard is available in CBTC or ECTS configuration with minor interface card changes/additions).

 

[zwk500]

ECTS Level2 has been used for 110 second headways in Switzerland.

Thats 32.7 trains per hour, so should comfortably handle a mix of say 20 Bakerloo and Overground trains per hour north of Queens Park

Is that going to be sufficient for the lifetime of the signalling system?

 

[Snow1964]

Latest TfL Board Programmes and Investment Committee papers now published ahead of next weeks meeting.

Per section 5.6 Looks like had to spend another £11.5m related to cab cctv, taking contract to £99.4m, to vary contract which suggests either wasn't specified well, or is not working as planned on new 24ts

Picadilly Line Upgrade One Person Operation (OPO) CCTV Variation to the contract to deliver the new OPO CCTV System required to capture and display in ‘real time’, images of the Platform Train Interface within the 24TS cab, to enable visibility to the Train Operators. The variation includes maintenance of the system once operational, amendment to the contract pricing mechanism and novation of the contract from Panasonic to Alan Dic Communications Ltd.

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s26537/pic-20260701-item%2004a-matters-arising-actions-and%20delegated-authority.pdf

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jun 2026 ==


Just discovered section 8.2.6 in this paper in the Board pack regarding first train in service, so could be another year away

The PLU Programme team is working towards the first train entering passenger service between December 2026 and June 2027

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s26563/pic-20260701-item05-part%201-IPR.pdf

 

[Thirteen]

Did notice the forecast for Bakerloo new trains is 2032 which suggests if TfL orders the 2024 stock from Siemens this year then once the PLU is done, Siemens won't have a gap in production.

 

[Alxxxs]

Did notice the forecast for Bakerloo new trains is 2032 which suggests if TfL orders the 2024 stock from Siemens this year then once the PLU is done, Siemens won't have a gap in production.

In which document is this?

 

[Thirteen]

In which document is this?

The TfL Board Programmes and Investment Committee papers, the link is in @Snow1964 post above mine