Converting 450s to 350s (SWT/ LM/ Northern cascade?)

[tbtc]

There have been a number of threads about additional EMUs for Lancashire, the West Midlands and the Manchester Airport - Glasgow/Edinburgh services.

There have also been a few mentions of additional EMUs for SWT (lengthening the Windsor Line platforms/ additional capacity on other lines/ replacing the DMUs which run on electrified lines).

But, whilst people argue about how many new 350s would be needed for LM enhancements (and the TPE Scottish service), whether any new units would need to be 380s instead (creating non-standards etc), I've not seen any suggestion of building enough new EMUs for SWT to release a significant number of 450s north (converting them to AC by sticking in a pantograph).

It'd mean only one new class needed built (for SWT), give LM a more standard fleet - e.g. no need for 380s - (enough additional EMUs for LM to get rid of the 321s, maybe even any 323s not used on the Cross City line), benefits for Northern and the TPE Scottish route too.

(yes, I know that the Manchester Airport - Glasgow/Edinburgh route may well not be TPE operated by the time of the next set of franchises, but I refer to it as such for now until we know who will be running it)

 

[DjU]

give LM a more standard fleet - e.g. no need for 380s -

LM aren't getting any 380. No 380s are being ordered.

Makes the rest of your post a bit pointless.

 

[tbtc]

LM aren't getting any 380. No 380s are being ordered.

Makes the rest of your post a bit pointless.

There's been talk that new 350s couldn't be built as they don't meet current regs, hence 380s potentially having to be built instead.

Are you saying that new 350s can be built?

 

[DjU]

There's been talk that new 350s couldn't be built as they don't meet current regs, hence 380s potentially having to be built instead.

Are you saying that new 350s can be built?

Yes. In the same way the extra 4 390s have been built for the WCML.
A brand new order of them for a new operator would not get off the ground, BUT they can sneak in though as an add on to an existing fleet through derrogation. They have to be ordered soon, though! As that window doesn't stay open for ever.

 

[WatcherZero]

Essentially their exercising their contractual 'options' to acquire additional stock, its not a new tender with the resulting standards/competition. like when ordering aircraft, you say I will buy 50 737's but I want the 'option' to buy upto another 30 at the same price up until 3 years later. The contractual options are usually put in to ensure that if you want to order more in the near future you can get the same stock (for compatability/maintence efficencies) at the same price (you ordered in bulk so get bulk discount, if you placed a fresh order for a smaller number you may not be able to negotiate the same price).

 

[Goldfish62]

Essentially their exercising their contractual 'options' to acquire additional stock, its not a new tender with the resulting standards/competition. like when ordering aircraft, you say I will buy 50 737's but I want the 'option' to buy upto another 30 at the same price up until 3 years later. The contractual options are usually put in to ensure that if you want to order more in the near future you can get the same stock (for compatability/maintence efficencies) at the same price (you ordered in bulk so get bulk discount, if you placed a fresh order for a smaller number you may not be able to negotiate the same price).

Yes, this happened with the Jubilee line 7-car project, when 4 additional complete new trains were ordered, and built in Barcelona. You can tell them as they have the old-style seat moquette and orange PIS displays.

 

[Schnellzug]

Whyever aren't 350s permissible any more, so we have to have the hideous 380s? Is this EU Regulations again? Have they decided that to for someone new to order 350s wouldn't be Safe, but for someone who already has to order more would be? Or this is from the Department of Government Illogicality?

 

[jopsuk]

I think this is a home-grown update to safety regulations.

 

[Minstral25]

The Class 380's and 350's are actually both Desiros - the 380 cab end is different to allow better aerodynamics. Surely if you built more for LM they would need compatible cabs with the current 350's and thus the streamlined cab would not be used whether they are designated 380/2 or 350/3.

And why build another unit for SWT? surely they would have the same compatibility problems between units?

Anyway the Desiro City units will be next - as per the Thameslink order

 

[jopsuk]

The 380s are different in other ways- it's a 23m, 2.7m body-shell- actually closer in dimensions to a 444 than a 350/360/450

 

[starrymarkb]

Whyever aren't 350s permissible any more, so we have to have the hideous 380s? Is this EU Regulations again? Have they decided that to for someone new to order 350s wouldn't be Safe, but for someone who already has to order more would be? Or this is from the Department of Government Illogicality?

Not EU as such. More UIC (Union of Railways) updated their standards to provide protection to the driver from things like Barrow upon Soar. It's possible to build to existing designs, but as the 380s have a new lighter bodyshell design they needed a new compliant cab.

Look at it another way. You might have noticed that most new cars have daytime running lights, but you can buy a car designed before the DRL regs came in without them. But when they replace the model they need DRLs.

A good example being the Vauxhall Astra. The car is now on the Mark 6 - the Astravan however is still based on the Mk5. Cars have Daytime running lights, Van's don't!

 

[Helvellyn]

But, whilst people argue about how many new 350s would be needed for LM enhancements (and the TPE Scottish service), whether any new units would need to be 380s instead (creating non-standards etc), I've not seen any suggestion of building enough new EMUs for SWT to release a significant number of 450s north (converting them to AC by sticking in a pantograph).

It'd mean only one new class needed built (for SWT), give LM a more standard fleet - e.g. no need for 380s - (enough additional EMUs for LM to get rid of the 321s, maybe even any 323s not used on the Cross City line), benefits for Northern and the TPE Scottish route too.

You'd transfer the problem your perceive for LM/TPE (mixed fleets) to SWT though! The 45 444 and 127 450 units are all based at Northam, and SWT gets great benefits from having two types of unit in service. If anything, if the rebuild of the 458/460 fleets happens for the Windsor lines, SWT will be able to convert the High Capacity 450/5 units back to 450/0 units for use on the Reading services and gain from having four EMU fleets: -

• 444 - Long distance
• 450 - Outer suburban
• 455 - Inner suburban (Metro)
• 458 - Inner suburban (Windsor)

 

[jopsuk]

what would be even better for SWT (in terms of fleet simplification) would be if the 455/458 fleet was replaced with an inner-suburban Desiro, compatible with the 450 and 444, though the expense of this makes it unlikely- and there would still have to be two sub fleets unless the rest of the Inner Suburban could go to 10 cars. Unlikely, given that several stations are island platforms that the 8 cars fill.

For a bonus round, the 158s would be replaced with a lighter weight diesel Desiro, able to at least couple to, though ideally work with, the electric ones.

The 458s can be converted to be AC units- along with, if they're being heavily rebuilt anyway, the 460s, for a potential 46 four-car units?

 

[thefab444]

I'd like to see a new batch of 444s for SWT, allowing 450s to replace the 458s, and the 450/5s to be extended to five coaches. This would cut SWT down to just three EMU fleets, 444 (express), 450 (outer suburban) and 455 (inner suburban). The SWT fleet is skewed too far in favour of outer suburban units rather than express units at the moment.

The 458s would be refurbished, converted to AC and combined with the 460s, as jopsuk suggests, and sent to Northern or TPE. If enough extra 444s were ordered, it might also be possible to cascade a couple of 158 units up north as well.

 

[ChampsRacing]

No more 444s are able to be built anyway they got rid of the moulds after they was built. I asked my management recently and they still have no word over any of the stock for the 10car project they are not being told by the DFT until the rest of the public so im unable to raise any light on the issue about swt.

 

[Schnellzug]

There see, the 444s were so good they broke the mould after they made them.



Would it not be easier if the Fat Cat Capitalist Rail Chiefs were able to just get on with it without having to wait for the Politicians to allow them to do anything?

 

[thefab444]

That's not an insurmountable problem as the moulds could be rebuilt quite cheaply if the order was large enough. Besides the stock wouldn't need to be exactly the same as the existing Class 444s; just fully compatible, 23 metres long and with a similar interior specification.

The ex-LSWR sector is quite rare in its use of 23 metre vehicles for long distance commuter workings, so I assume it was thought that no further orders for that design would be placed.

 

[swt_passenger]

No more 444s are able to be built anyway they got rid of the moulds after they was built. |

The word is 'jig' not mould.

1. If they have kept the drawings the jigs can be replaced, therefore more 444s can be built.

2. If they haven't kept the drawings - (which would be practically unheard of with modern QA certification), jigs can be reverse engineered anyway using a 444.

Therefore the fact they didn't keep the original manufacturing jigs is irrelevant, if a suitable sized order was placed they'd just build replacement jigs...

 

[Schnellzug]

Maybe they could ask A1SLT to knock up a few after they've finished the P2?

 

[ChampsRacing]

Well jig, mould whatever they are actually called, unless DFT state thats exactly what swt are getting i know they prefer 450s over anything else currently in the market. Desiro cities would be preferable to replace 455s in my opinion because of the sliding door design rather than plug doors meaning less door failures for the frequent stopping patterns.

 

[swt_passenger]

Well jig, mould whatever they are actually called, unless DFT state thats exactly what swt are getting i know they prefer 450s over anything else currently in the market. Desiro cities would be preferable to replace 455s in my opinion because of the sliding door design rather than plug doors meaning less door failures for the frequent stopping patterns.

I don't disagree with any of that - clearly what SWT need is more units (or extra 5th cars as applicable) that can augment all their inner suburban services up to 10 cars, whether 450, 455, or 458, and also to increase the remaining 8.450s on outer suburbans up to their max length of 12.450s.

That is a good reason not to expect any more 444s. Lack of jigs is not...

 

[DjU]

I don't disagree with any of that - clearly what SWT need is more units (or extra 5th cars as applicable) that can augment all their inner suburban services up to 10 cars, whether 450, 455, or 458, and also to increase the remaining 8.450s on outer suburbans up to their max length of 12.450s.

That is a good reason not to expect any more 444s. Lack of jigs is not...

Apparently the 460 / 458 plan is likely to be back on. Proposals for the 10 car project are being re submitted.