TfW class 398 Stadler Citylink tram trains

[fgw_43025]

Almost all airconditioned trains require the windows to be opened by the guard, simply because people have a tendency to open them when the train is cooling down, which stops the aircon working.

How effective is air conditioning going to be with regular opening of the doors every couple of minutes on the Valleys?

 

[Benjwri]

How effective is air conditioning going to be with regular opening of the doors every couple of minutes on the Valleys?

Presumably no less effective than on the London tramlink, Overground, Underground lines with S Stock, and the vast swathe of European networks which run with aircon?

 

[800001]

Just a further query on sidings and capacity. I assume Taffs Well has sufficient siding capacity for the whole fleet with 9, or is it 10, sidings outside which can take 3 units giving space for 27 units. The others can be accommodated in the shed?
Are the units outside moved around on a regular basis to keep them 'fresh'?

I've read on this forum (can't find post) that the depot can not hold the whole fleet, and that there is some sidings along the route that have been made suitable to stable so many each night.

 

[chargesmith]

I've read on this forum (can't find post) that the depot can not hold the whole fleet, and that there is some sidings along the route that have been made suitable to stable so many each night.

They can all fit in Taffs Well, it's just a matter of whether this is beneficial.

By my analysis of the satellite imagery (attached), there is space to stable a minimum of 28 398s (possibly 32) in the stabling sidings at Taffs Well. They could probably store more there if they needed to but they wouldn't have access to the OLE above the official stabling sidings, uncertain if this is important.

I often see at least one unit stabled up the back of the complex visible from the A470 and sometimes along the side.

Haven't included inside space although presumably it's possible to store them inside if needed.

I believe there is some space for stabling at Treherbert as well but unsure for how many units.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Just a further query on sidings and capacity. I assume Taffs Well has sufficient siding capacity for the whole fleet with 9, or is it 10, sidings outside which can take 3 units giving space for 27 units. The others can be accommodated in the shed?
Are the units outside moved around on a regular basis to keep them 'fresh'?

When I have been there I have deduced there are nine roads outside and I have noticed space for four 398s on about 50% of those roads (with conductor rail above *1) and 3 398s on the rest. Looking at the aerial photo it is 5 roads of 4 x 398 and 4 roads of 3 398. That makes a total of 32 on the straight sidings.

There are three internal shed roads each capable of accommodating two 398s so that is another six.

Outside by the main road there is one line that goes into a small open ended shed * alongside the main shed. I have seen one 398 inside and one 398 outside. So two there.

There is another small shed * that I have seen a 398 outside of and it is not long enough for a 398 to fit inside. But two could fit on that track judging from the aerial shot. But then other lines would be blocked. So i will say one there.

That is a total of 41 (32 + 6 + 2 + 1). So that is space for five more than the current fleet size.

You could get more there by cluttering up the loop line round the depot.

I was lead to believe Treherbert had sidings for some but I have no proof that any have been there. But these might be stabling sidings for keeping 398s convenient for start of service. No service yet so no need to keep any there.

I wonder how many 398s Taffs Well can send out in the morning ?.
I mean movement capacity wise, so Treherbert might be necessary for getting enough 398s out for normal service.

*1 = I noticed when I was there that the conductor rail above the sidings is not continuous not even within one siding capable of taking four 398s. How long before someone moves a 398 along one siding and loses the panto-graph.

*2 = Both small sheds look like a fuelling shed or a tanking shed - neither of which would be appropriate, but that it is what they remind me of !.

 

[positron]

I remember in the green signals podcast they said that the depot has plenty of capacity even for more stabiling but if there were stabling elsewhere then they'd have capacity to service them all at taffs well.

I suspect long term some stabling by Pierhead Street would be useful and have space but obviously depends on cross rail being extended.

 

[Tram Inn SB]

You could argue that the CVL is not NR infrastructure, but the safety considerations of running tests with supposedly dodgy brakes on a live railway line shared with passenger services would be the same and the rail regulator would take a very dim view of that.

Additional TPWS grids have been installed on the CVL at least to allow the 398 operation at key high risk junctions. There will also be no permissive working at Cardiff Central with a 398, it was put to be that if a heavy rail train collided with a 398 it would be catastrophic.

I really do fear when an incident happens (PHBT or vandalism) how the driver will fair with that huge target windscreen.

 

[Benjwri]

whereas I believe that there are relatively few classes that are air conditioned (or designed with air conditioning) that have the "emergency ventilation" windows - 158, 166, 231, 398, 745, 755 and 756. I make that just 7?

Therefore, I don't understand any suggestions that the "emergency ventilation" windows are a lot more common than they actually are.

They’re not on every train, but they’re also not the exception. They’re on all the electrostars for a start, so the vast majority of trains in the South East.

 

[bahnause]

Additional TPWS grids have been installed on the CVL at least to allow the 398 operation at key high risk junctions. There will also be no permissive working at Cardiff Central with a 398, it was put to be that if a heavy rail train collided with a 398 it would be catastrophic.

I really do fear when an incident happens (PHBT or vandalism) how the driver will fair with that huge target windscreen.

I thought the 398 are EN15277 C-III compliant? If this is the case, I wouldn't be worried.

 

[Caaardiff]

I really do fear when an incident happens (PHBT or vandalism) how the driver will fair with that huge target windscreen

Interesting point. How do these things fair against trees?

 

[Peter Sarf]

There are a lot of classes of unit/set that are air conditioned but don't have the "emergency ventilation" windows though, like 168/170/172/175/180/185/195/196/197/220/221/222/345/350/360/390/730/777/800/801/802/805/807/810 and Mark 5A. So 25 there, and those are just the ones I've ridden on...

...whereas I believe that there are relatively few classes that are air conditioned (or designed with air conditioning) that have the "emergency ventilation" windows - 158, 166, 231, 398, 745, 755 and 756. I make that just 7?

Therefore, I don't understand any suggestions that the "emergency ventilation" windows are a lot more common than they actually are.

My regular diet is 377s so I suspect that has shaped my perception. Iuppose unlockable windows applies to 375, 377 & 357. Maybe also 171s (older 170s perhaps ?) & 378s.

 

[wickham]

When I have been there I have deduced there are nine roads outside and I have noticed space for four 398s on about 50% of those roads (with conductor rail above *1) and 3 398s on the rest. Looking at the aerial photo it is 5 roads of 4 x 398 and 4 roads of 3 398. That makes a total of 32 on the straight sidings.

There are three internal shed roads each capable of accommodating two 398s so that is another six.

Outside by the main road there is one line that goes into a small open ended shed * alongside the main shed. I have seen one 398 inside and one 398 outside. So two there.

There is another small shed * that I have seen a 398 outside of and it is not long enough for a 398 to fit inside. But two could fit on that track judging from the aerial shot. But then other lines would be blocked. So i will say one there.

That is a total of 41 (32 + 6 + 2 + 1). So that is space for five more than the current fleet size.

You could get more there by cluttering up the loop line round the depot.

I was lead to believe Treherbert had sidings for some but I have no proof that any have been there. But these might be stabling sidings for keeping 398s convenient for start of service. No service yet so no need to keep any there.

I wonder how many 398s Taffs Well can send out in the morning ?.
I mean movement capacity wise, so Treherbert might be necessary for getting enough 398s out for normal service.

*1 = I noticed when I was there that the conductor rail above the sidings is not continuous not even within one siding capable of taking four 398s. How long before someone moves a 398 along one siding and loses the panto-graph.

*2 = Both small sheds look like a fuelling shed or a tanking shed - neither of which would be appropriate, but that it is what they remind me of !.

Beleive the small shed in the middle of the "circle" at the top end of the picture is the wheel lathe, so this would not be used for stabling. Also it is noteable that the track nearest the building on the left hand side (as viewed in the photo) is clear of stabled units, presumably for access purposes, stabling on this track might block access, depending upon how the place functions. Does it operate like a roundabout, in one way and out the other?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Beleive the small shed in the middle of the "circle" at the top end of the picture is the wheel lathe, so this would not be used for stabling. Also it is noteable that the track nearest the building on the left hand side (as viewed in the photo) is clear of stabled units, presumably for access purposes, stabling on this track might block access, depending upon how the place functions. Does it operate like a roundabout, in one way and out the other?

I have seen a 398 move along that line nearest the main shed in an anti-clockwise direction. So it is a possibility it is not a stabling line. But on my last two visits there has been a ninth 398 parked on the line nearest to the main shed, but only ever at the Southern most end (bottom of picture)

True enough, having looked at the satellite view, it may be that the gantries supporting the overhead rail do not cover that ninth track. I can make the gantries out as light coloured structures over the 398s and also the shadow they cast on the ground. The ninth track may have conventional overhead wires as I can see small shadows that might be the uprights on the side nearest the building of that track.

 

[chargesmith]

Beleive the small shed in the middle of the "circle" at the top end of the picture is the wheel lathe, so this would not be used for stabling. Also it is noteable that the track nearest the building on the left hand side (as viewed in the photo) is clear of stabled units, presumably for access purposes, stabling on this track might block access, depending upon how the place functions. Does it operate like a roundabout, in one way and out the other?

Once the units are in service I suspect it won't matter that the 9th track is used to store units, but makes sense to keep it clear until then so it's easier to move units around.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Once the units are in service I suspect it won't matter that the 9th track is used to store units, but makes sense to keep it clear until then so it's easier to move units around.

Thats a point. Because currently 398s are not going out in large enough numbers to allow rotation of the whole lot. When all in service then three cluttering up that internal running line overnight could be last in and first out.

It could potentially preclude an overnight move of a 398 that is in the middle of the length of those nine sidings into the servicing shed. That means planning and no last minute changes.

If Treforest sidings are used (because that would be when the 398s are in service) then that would very likely be unnecessary.

Anyway I am sure TfW have planned it through.

 

[nigelsporne]

Sorry Peter but are you using 'planned' and 'TfW' in the same sentence!!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Sorry Peter but are you using 'planned' and 'TfW' in the same sentence!!

Guilty as charged, I did hesitate when I typed that .

To be fair they (TfW) must have a plan, it is just a matter of how good it is in the long run .

 

[trainspotter4]

Have we seen 398023 on recent test runs? First time I've saw it as if so that's 8 operational units now unless the others have mysteriously broke, but seems like progress?

 

[VR494]

Have we seen 398023 on recent test runs? First time I've saw it as if so that's 8 operational units now unless the others have mysteriously broke, but seems like progress?

They are currently doing driving training on fault free runs at the same time. There are no current units in Taff's Well that are signed off and ready for passenger service. Some have even been leaking water this week into the cabs in significant volume which has cancelled more runs - 398-017 being one of these!

 

[chargesmith]

deleted

 

[EveningStarr]

Well this video released today by TfW tells a different story from what we've heard here and elsewhere.

 

[chargesmith]

Well this video released today by TfW tells a different story from what we've heard here and elsewhere.

They must think the units are imminently going to enter public service, will be interesting to see when that is.

The video said there were toilets at Trefforest but I wasn't aware there were any there?

 

[MikePJ]

Looks like there’s a 398 run to the Bay overnight tonight https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:V12620/2026-06-06/detailed

 

[VR494]

Well this video released today by TfW tells a different story from what we've heard here and elsewhere.

Another classic PR stunt there again. They need to stop promising dates, it's not going to happen. Late summer, but more like 2027-28.

Reality is, 34 units have been delivered. Only a handful of them are in a functional state as previously mentioned. Those that are running are consistently full of faults, a team are onboard to wipe all software. Faults are being hidden off logs, including those of previous brake issues. Evidence has been shown to the unions which they are hiding away. Staff are reporting them, and then dragged up to see management if they refuse to take a unit out. They are not fit for purpose, and it's not going to end well I'm sorry to say.

So far there only 3-4 crew passed out to work them too.

I know you don't believe me, but I wouldn’t even take my family on one of these things.

 

[800001]

Another classic PR stunt there again. They need to stop promising dates, it's not going to happen. Late summer, but more like 2027-28.

Reality is, 34 units have been delivered. Only a handful of them are in a functional state as previously mentioned. Those that are running are consistently full of faults, a team are onboard to wipe all software. Faults are being hidden off logs, including those of previous brake issues. Evidence has been shown to the unions which they are hiding away. Staff are reporting them, and then dragged up to see management if they refuse to take a unit out. They are not fit for purpose, and it's not going to end well I'm sorry to say.

So far there only 3-4 crew passed out to work them too.

I know you don't believe me, but I wouldn’t even take my family on one of these things.

I find it strange that if the units are as bad as you say they are, and faults (brakes etc) are also as bad as you say. Why are the unions not shouting from the roof tops like they normally do when such serious issues with rolling stock.

Also why are the unions allowing there members to drive the units if they are so bad?

 

[positron]

They must think the units are imminently going to enter public service, will be interesting to see when that is.

The video said there were toilets at Trefforest but I wasn't aware there were any there?

TBF if I had a pound for every time they'd done a video about the 398s being imminent I'd probably have a fiver, which isn't much but shows they lie a bit.

 

[Caaardiff]

Reality is, 34 units have been delivered. Only a handful of them are in a functional state as previously mentioned. Those that are running are consistently full of faults, a team are onboard to wipe all software. Faults are being hidden off logs, including those of previous brake issues. Evidence has been shown to the unions which they are hiding away. Staff are reporting them, and then dragged up to see management if they refuse to take a unit out. They are not fit for purpose, and it's not going to end well I'm sorry to say.

Absolute rubbish. If there's one thing the Railway is good at, its having the backing of Unions for anything that is unworkable, or unsafe.
Whatever bitter reason you left TFW for, it's time to go and enjoy your retirement.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2026 ==

TBF if I had a pound for every time they'd done a video about the 398s being imminent I'd probably have a fiver, which isn't much but shows they lie a bit.

T also BF. They were a lot further from introduction before. Now introduction is supposedly imminent. If that wasn't going to happen then they would be crazy to a put this video out.

 

[positron]

Another classic PR stunt there again. They need to stop promising dates, it's not going to happen. Late summer, but more like 2027-28.

Reality is, 34 units have been delivered. Only a handful of them are in a functional state as previously mentioned. Those that are running are consistently full of faults, a team are onboard to wipe all software. Faults are being hidden off logs, including those of previous brake issues. Evidence has been shown to the unions which they are hiding away. Staff are reporting them, and then dragged up to see management if they refuse to take a unit out. They are not fit for purpose, and it's not going to end well I'm sorry to say.

So far there only 3-4 crew passed out to work them too.

I know you don't believe me, but I wouldn’t even take my family on one of these things.

If you really genuinely feel so strongly that you wouldn't take your family on them then you need to be telling your sources to go to the newspaper to whistleblow rather than coming on here and dropping bits of info here and there.

The reason many of us struggle to believe what you say is because it's so extreme that it's just hard to believe when you're the only one with these sources. There was a local election recently and apparently no one tipped off an opposing party to use this?

Plaid didn't think oh we can come out and call this out for the mismanaged mess you claim it to be?

I fully believe that there have been numerous issues with these units and I don't doubt they're a bit of a mess. But they can't possibly be *that* bad.

 

[AdamWW]

Well this video released today by TfW tells a different story from what we've heard here and elsewhere.

Sounds just a little bit defensive about the toilet issue though!

 

[BillStampy]

Another classic PR stunt there again. They need to stop promising dates, it's not going to happen. Late summer, but more like 2027-28.

Reality is, 34 units have been delivered. Only a handful of them are in a functional state as previously mentioned. Those that are running are consistently full of faults, a team are onboard to wipe all software. Faults are being hidden off logs, including those of previous brake issues. Evidence has been shown to the unions which they are hiding away. Staff are reporting them, and then dragged up to see management if they refuse to take a unit out. They are not fit for purpose, and it's not going to end well I'm sorry to say.

Okay, I'm not trying to be rude but I think it's time you step back from these units as you're the only one claiming they're as bad as they are when it appears they're running in quite well with regular Taffs Well tests to the heads of the Valleys, Cardiff Bay and more. From the other posts in this thread it would appear most of us here agree it would be best if you stepped back from these and just stop it. The way you're making them out to be is so unimaginably unbelievable that I flat out do not believe what you say anymore.

As other people have pointed out, more units are rolling off the depot into testing like 398023 for example.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2026 ==

Well this video released today by TfW tells a different story from what we've heard here and elsewhere.

Well it's a positive thing to see officially posted by TfW, hopefully not long now.