Eurostar orders new double-deck train fleet

[Sorcerer]

SNCF seems to be doing just that in France!

They are just lying flat letting Trenitalia, Ilisto and Proxima take up capacity on France's flagship LGVs.

Legally they have to allow some competition under EU liberalisation laws. It's not as if they're actively allowing it out of the pure goodness of their hearts in the name of reducing their monopoly on French railways. To an extent I can somewhat understand it since I'm in two minds about open access operations, but in either case they have a vested interest in ensuring Eurostar maintains it's monopoly on the high-speed London-Continent market, so cutting back any services that could make room for competition wouldn't make sense, especially since they don't legally have to allow it in this instance as far as I know.

 

[Peter Sarf]

So are we saying that Eurostar can more easily hold on to a monopoly through the Channel Tunnel, along HS1 and into St Pancras because Britain left Europe .

On the subject of 374s. Reading up thread I get the impression perhaps some of the 374s are used on services not getting to St Pancras ?.
If so could the increased capacity on services to Britain be because these 374s will be replaced within Europe by the new trains and so those 374s will be used to increase the cross channel capacity ?.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Legally they have to allow some competition under EU liberalisation laws. It's not as if they're actively allowing it out of the pure goodness of their hearts in the name of reducing their monopoly on French railways. To an extent I can somewhat understand it since I'm in two minds about open access operations, but in either case they have a vested interest in ensuring Eurostar maintains it's monopoly on the high-speed London-Continent market, so cutting back any services that could make room for competition wouldn't make sense, especially since they don't legally have to allow it in this instance as far as I know.

They do have to allow competition in the sense that they can’t unilaterally bar a competitor from Temple Mills. From what I understand they have to permit access to the depot unless they can prove there is no space. This is why the ORR got involved in their role as regulator, as Eurostar and their competitors disagreed over whether or not there was space for another operator.

 

[STINT47]

It's worth noting that Eurostar have said that they welcome competition but feel that restrictions on infrastructure make it not currently possible.

 

[Richard Scott]

I hope not.
You really do feel like you're on a wing and a prayer everytime you're on one!

Why, they're preferable to the 374s, no bottoming out on the suspension and the ride is superior. Considering how good DB ICE trains are the 374s are a poor effort. Look forward to the new double decker trains!

 

[nwales58]

This all points out the advantages of framework orders. SNCF calls down another batch from the TGV-M order with a slightly different interior (1st/2nd/luggage split) but can wait a couple of years then order a few more of the same. Gives them a large advantage in flexibility and lower cost than a competitor with a much smaller trainset to play with.

Contrast that with the GB approach of deciding that precisely 53 of a type are necessary for the next 40 years (not 52 nor 54 let alone 60), once the production line has finished ordering another 27 incurs additional startup costs.

 

[43096]

This all points out the advantages of framework orders. SNCF calls down another batch from the TGV-M order with a slightly different interior (1st/2nd/luggage split) but can wait a couple of years then order a few more of the same. Gives them a large advantage in flexibility and lower cost than a competitor with a much smaller trainset to play with.

Contrast that with the GB approach of deciding that precisely 53 of a type are necessary for the next 40 years (not 52 nor 54 let alone 60), once the production line has finished ordering another 27 incurs additional startup costs.

Agreed, but it only really works well where you have long production runs of vehicles. That means standardised designs. With a 200 set framework contract for TGV-M - which had an initial call-off of 100 sets - that's a long-ish production run and plenty of flexibility in the options. Britain is largely too much of a non-standard market for rail vehicles for such contracts to be really effective - although there is scope to do a lot better.

 

[NCT]

As long as operators don't go for silly specifications, surely it's in manufacturers' interest to offer standard platforms at competitive prices? It can't be a coincidence that CAF keeps winning DMU orders. When Hitachi wanted silly money for the latest LNER fleet they got shown the door.

Of course manufacturers wouldn't keep prices low if order books are thin and there's discontinuity in production. Similarly I'd expect break clauses / expiry clauses in framework contracts too. I'm not sure the differences are all that great in practice.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Aren't they the same seats since the refurb?

I've been on one since refurbishment; the seats look the same but they do feel a bit more comfortable, although not as comfortable as the originals.

Where the 373s win is that the seats are still in the original "straight across in each row" style and not in that awful staggered clutter that the 374s have, so on the 373s it's also a lot quicker and easier to get in and out of the seats.

 

[martin2345uk]

Why, they're preferable to the 374s, no bottoming out on the suspension and the ride is superior. Considering how good DB ICE trains are the 374s are a poor effort. Look forward to the new double decker trains!

From a drivers perspective the 373s are horrible things and in no way preferable to 374s.

 

[Sorcerer]

DB’s ICE1 fleet says hello… currently 34 years old and going through a second heavy refurbishment for continued use.

However the DB ICE1 doesn't run through the Channel Tunnel multiple times per day inevitably leading to faster corrosion from the salty seawater air over time. That was apparently a major factor with much of the old Eurostar fleet seeing early retirement.

 

[Richard Scott]

From a drivers perspective the 373s are horrible things and in no way preferable to 374s.

Sorry but as a passenger that isn't one of my concerns. Sure they're paid enough to deal with that?

 

[martin2345uk]

It’s a passengers concern though when their unreliability becomes a real issue as is starting to be the case.

 

[Richard Scott]

It’s a passengers concern though when their unreliability becomes a real issue as is starting to be the case.

That is but that's not what was said as the post was stating what drivers prefer.
I've never had an issue with one, in fact had one substitute for a failed 374 once. I know my experience doesn't cover the whole story but as a train I prefer a 373.

 

[martin2345uk]

I do agree as a passenger the 373s are a nicer experience comfort wise, just giving the staff perspective also for what it’s worth.

 

[Watershed]

Sorry but as a passenger that isn't one of my concerns. Sure they're paid enough to deal with that?

If the issues concern ergonomics, noise, vibrations etc. then it is of passenger concern. Those factors can all contribute to fatigue and thus increase the risk of an operational incident.

 

[LoonyToon]

Why, they're preferable to the 374s, no bottoming out on the suspension and the ride is superior. Considering how good DB ICE trains are the 374s are a poor effort. Look forward to the new double decker trains!

For passenger comfort the 373 is far superior.
For reliability the 374 is far superior.
For drivers the 374 wins hands down for comfort and reliability.
They could have done a better job in making the 374's more comfortable for passengers but at least they're more likely to get you to where you want to go!!

 

[Richard Scott]

If the issues concern ergonomics, noise, vibrations etc. then it is of passenger concern. Those factors can all contribute to fatigue and thus increase the risk of an operational incident.

Somewhat over egging this. If that's such a problem that it would lead to an incident then that's up to the company to sort. Assume this has all been brought to their attention as must be a significant concern?

 

[NCT]

The age of the asset and the cost of its upkeep ultimately do affect the customer offer. All good things must come to an end at some point.

The issue with the Class 374 is the interior aesthetics which is solely down to operator specification. We have one operator that excelled with one class and fvcked up with another. None of it has anything to do with the underlying train type. That the 373 has a better interior than the 374 is no indication of which way the interior of the Celestia is going to go.

Things like overhead luggage space, dwell times and entry height are fundamental to the underlying train type.

 

[bspahh]

Jon Worth has published an 81 page report on possible high speed rail links using the channel tunnel:

Executive Summary

There is considerable appetite for more trains, to more destinations, through the
Channel Tunnel. This report sets out what types of trains are suitable for high speed long
distance services from London to stations in Continental Europe, what stations beyond
those currently served could get direct trains from the UK, and what operators could run
those trains.

The report concludes that there are at least four and maybe even five possible types of
train that could be deployed on these services, in addition to the two existing types
operated by Eurostar.

Running 2x 200m long trains coupled together, rather than a single 400m long unit as
Eurostar does currently, poses no problem in principle, but may do in practice, especially
when accounting for Channel Tunnel evacuation rules. The problem particularly applies
to the double deck Avelia Horizon trains ordered by Eurostar, and less to other designs.

Re-opening stations that have had Eurostar stops in the past – notably Ebbsfleet,
Ashford, Calais-Fréthun and Marne-la-Vallée – is obviously sensible, and is mostly a
question of who bears the costs.

Serving new destinations is more complicated, but two Corridors – to Western Germany
(serving Köln and Frankfurt) and to Switzerland (serving Basel and Zürich) – look to be
possible in the medium term without major adaptions of stations.

Southern France and Southern Germany (where stations require complex and costly re-
building) look to be the most difficult. South Western France and the French Alps are
operationally possible, but the question is more whether any operator would try these
routes. There is a little potential for more trains to Netherlands.

Among the operators, Eurostar is going to run the majority of trains from London to
Continental Europe for the foreseeable future, although there are major question marks
about the approach of the incumbent operator. Virgin Trains – with a clear if limited
strategy – is the most likely rival by the early 2030s. Trenitalia, as the only potential
operator that can overcome the lack of access to Temple Mills depot, should not be
ruled out, but might of its own accord opt against London. Despite its radical ideas,
Gemini Trains looks unlikely to succeed from here, while Evolyn’s strategy was not clear
from the outset. Swiss Federal Railways SBB might join in too, but we will only know in
2026 how this could happen, and Deutsche Bahn is unlikely to offer direct trains to
London in the short to medium term.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

He has also posted an interactive map of potential routes and stations.

#CrossChannelRail Corridors & Stations

<h3>About</h3>Map of current and future long distance train routes through the Channel Tunnel. Corridors are in map layers, and icons indicate the different state of development of stations. Full background about the project: <a>https://crosschannelrail.trainsforeurope.eu/</a> <h3>Explanation...

umap.openstreetmap.fr

Map of current and future long distance train routes through the Channel Tunnel. Corridors are in map layers, and icons indicate the different state of development of stations. Full background about the project: https://crosschannelrail.trainsforeurope.eu/

 

[danshrimp]

Jon Worth has published an 81 page report on possible high speed rail links using the channel tunnel:

Discussions based on this that aren't directly relevant to Eurostar rolling stock might be better suited to the speculative thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/proposed-new-channel-tunnel-services-discussion.276246/page-65

 

[williamn]

Discussions based on this that aren't directly relevant to Eurostar rolling stock might be better suited to the speculative thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/proposed-new-channel-tunnel-services-discussion.276246/page-65

There’s an interesting section in the report where he discusses whether the trains Eurostar have ordered can a really be compliant with channel tunnel safety regulations.

 

[Snow1964]

Not directly Eurostar order, but might affect the delivery date if the options are exercised.

SNCF voyagers has ordered 15 Avelia Horizon trains from Alstom, quad voltage versions which suggests they are for International services

• This optional tranche of the framework contract between SNCF Voyageurs and Alstom is worth approximately 600 million euros
• The new Avelia Horizon trains will be operated in Europe.

19 January 2026 – The Board of Directors of SNCF Voyageurs has approved an additional order for 15 new-generation Avelia Horizon very high-speed trains (known in France as TGV), worth approximately 600 million euros1 . Deliveries are expected in 2029.

This order is for the quad-voltage version of the new generation of high-speed trains, which meets European traffic requirements. The Avelia Horizon range meets ambitious objectives in terms of competitiveness in the rail sector and profitability for SNCF Voyageurs.​

ALSTOM S.A: Alstom receives an order from SNCF Voyageurs for 15 additional Avelia Horizon high-speed trains

This optional tranche of the framework contract between SNCF Voyageurs and Alstom is worth approximately 600 million eurosThe new Avelia Horizon trains...

www.globenewswire.com

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jan 2026 ==

SNCF has now got a media about the 15 extra trains, and says they are for France-Belgium services (which seems very close to the red Eurostar (ex Thayls) services, although exactly how they split between Operators is beyond me.

160 trainsets ordered from Alstom​

This latest purchase represents the 4th optional tranche of the Avelia Horizon contract signed by SNCF Voyageurs and Alstom. That agreement now covers 115 trainsets ordered by SNCF Voyageurs (100 for France and 15 for service in Italy) and 30 trainsets ordered by Eurostar, plus options for 20 additional units, bringing the total to 160 trainsets.

https://www.groupe-sncf.com/en/group/about-us/companies/sncf-voyageurs/15-tgv-m-trainsets-alstom-order

 

[Trainbike46]

SNCF has now got a media about the 15 extra trains, and says they are for France-Belgium services (which seems very close to the red Eurostar (ex Thayls) services, although exactly how they split between Operators is beyond me.

I would interpret that to mean these 15 extra ordered by SNCF are for the non-eurostar TGV services that start in Brussels, so that they are separate from the Eurostar units

https://www.groupe-sncf.com/en/group/about-us/companies/sncf-voyageurs/15-tgv-m-trainsets-alstom-order

The way I understand it:
115 units for SNCF (existing orders)
30 units for Eurostar (existing order)
15 units for SNCF (new order)

Total ordered so far 160, and Eurostar still has 20 options available, so could take the order to 180 if they use the options.

 

[Trainbike46]

Eurostar has published their passenger numbers and financial results for the last year. Relevant to the new fleet order is that Eurostar made the first payment (€90 million) to Alstom in 2025.

source: https://mediacentre.eurostar.com/mc_view?language=&article_Id=ka4WS00000060YPYAY

 

[LoonyToon]

Apparently the new fleet is delayed until 2034 at the earliest now!

 

[Snow1964]

Eurostar has published their passenger numbers and financial results for the last year. Relevant to the new fleet order is that Eurostar made the first payment (€90 million) to Alstom in 2025.

source: https://mediacentre.eurostar.com/mc_view?language=&article_Id=ka4WS00000060YPYAY

Looks like growth from London, +18.3% to Amsterdam, +5.8% to Brussels, +5% to Paris, +10% to Germany via Brussels.

But 3 paragraphs later says passenger numbers 20m (+3% up). So presumably some routes have not grown or shrunk to get average 3%.
Revenues were up 1.7%, less than 3% passenger number increase so on average tickets were bit cheaper.

Wonder if this will change ideas on how the new celestia fleet gets deployed if biggest growth rates are England - Netherlands/Germany, rather than to France and Belgium

 

[30907]

Looks like growth from London, +18.3% to Amsterdam, +5.8% to Brussels, +5% to Paris, +10% to Germany via Brussels.

But 3 paragraphs later says passenger numbers 20m (+3% up). So presumably some routes have not grown or shrunk to get average 3%.
Revenues were up 1.7%, less than 3% passenger number increase so on average tickets were bit cheaper.

Suggests that growth on the red routes is less.

Wonder if this will change ideas on how the new celestia fleet gets deployed if biggest growth rates are England - Netherlands/Germany, rather than to France and Belgium

NL is a relatively new market, though obviously healthy given they keep increasing the service. DE may be helped by the doubling of the ICE service, and less unreliable services (remember the Düren swap, anyone?), but I suspect is relatively small.

 

[43096]

NL is a relatively new market, though obviously healthy given they keep increasing the service. DE may be helped by the doubling of the ICE service, and less unreliable services (remember the Düren swap, anyone?), but I suspect is relatively small.

It certainly seems the DB service to Brussels has improved with the introduction of the ICE3neo sets in place of the original Class 406 ICE3 units, which were rather unreliable.