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Energy crisis will force TransPennine Express to ‘reassess priorities’ after £15m rise in fuel bill.

yorksrob

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On average fuel hedging will lose the government money, because if it didn't the counterparty would never agree to the contract as they wouldn't make money.

The government can absorb any serious fuel shock if it choses, so there is little incentive to hedge.

Do TPE managed stations have any manned ticket offices? I know they manage a handful of stations - those are probably all for the chop.

I'm sure Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Scarborough, Malton and Stalybridge are. Doubt Hudds will go unmanned. Would be a shame to lose all staffing at the others as they are well kept.

Stalybridge and Dewsbury have their bars, so there would still be a staff presence.

The optics of de-staffing would be extremely poor in light of the TRU. I'm sure something would be found.
 
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Krokodil

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Do TPE managed stations have any manned ticket offices? I know they manage a handful of stations - those are probably all for the chop.
Manchester Airport does. Though it never seems particularly well staffed, it doesn't seem unusual to see someone who I presume is a spare guard or TTI sat in there with their portable ticket machine.
 

ainsworth74

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Do TPE managed stations have any manned ticket offices? I know they manage a handful of stations - those are probably all for the chop.
Middlesbrough, Thirsk, Northallerton, Hull, Brough, Malton, Scarborough, Selby, Huddersfield, Manchester Airport, Stalybridge, and Cleethorpes I believe all have manned ticket offices.
 

CdBrux

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An energy source that would be priced on the international market that would make no difference to our bills.

There's no point investing in something that won't bring bills down in comparison to the global market.
you could always use the additional tax receipts to help reduce energy costs...
 

AndrewE

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Or just invest in generation that genuinely enables more self-sufficiency (such as renewables and nuclear).
but you still need to split the (average) electricity cost away from the price of the last entrant to the market. It's wrong that our average costs should have come down due to the proportion of renewables on the grid but we still pay the price set by gas generation. It might "work" - and serve the interests of the current players - but it's not in the best interest of industry, the country (i.e. us) or the economy.
 

HSTEd

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but you still need to split the (average) electricity cost away from the price of the last entrant to the market. It's wrong that our average costs should have come down due to the proportion of renewables on the grid but we still pay the price set by gas generation. It might "work" - and serve the interests of the current players - but it's not in the best interest of industry, the country (i.e. us) or the economy.
That is the problem with the whole concept of a wholesale electricity market.
As renewables become more prominent electric price swings will become more and more severe until they just jump between zero and enormous depending on whether renewables/nuclear can meet instantaneous demand or not.

Any mechanism to overcome this ends up completely gutting the electricity market - at which point you may as well return to the vertically integrated utility model.

None of this is likely to help TPE though, unless the battery trial gets rushed into real life operation as a result. Even then, the Class 801s are only a small portion of the TPE fleet.
 

yorksrob

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but you still need to split the (average) electricity cost away from the price of the last entrant to the market. It's wrong that our average costs should have come down due to the proportion of renewables on the grid but we still pay the price set by gas generation. It might "work" - and serve the interests of the current players - but it's not in the best interest of industry, the country (i.e. us) or the economy.

Yes, that's clearly a problem. I think the current Government are consulting on changing it.
 

Bald Rick

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Load of cobblers this, diesel is cheaper than it was 15 years ago when you adjust for inflation.

More scaremongering about the cost of living.

How is the price of diesel compared to 4 months ago, when 2026/7 budgets were set?
 

jupiter

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An energy source that would be priced on the international market that would make no difference to our bills.

There's no point investing in something that won't bring bills down in comparison to the global market.
Of course there is, increasing resilience against disrupted fossil fuel supply.

Or, keeping the lights on when Putin crosses the line or trump starts throwing his country’s toys around in the Middle East, for example.
 

Bletchleyite

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yorksrob

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Of course there is, increasing resilience against disrupted fossil fuel supply.

Or, keeping the lights on when Putin crosses the line or trump starts throwing his country’s toys around in the Middle East, for example.

It won't increase resilience as it will just go to the highest bidder.

I'd have more sympathy for the argument for more drilling if the proposal was to feed it directly into the British market to keep prices down, however none of the drillers are proposing this. It will just go to the multi-nationals as now.

It just seems like an attempt to curry favour with the orange cretin in Washington.
 

RailWonderer

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but you still need to split the (average) electricity cost away from the price of the last entrant to the market. It's wrong that our average costs should have come down due to the proportion of renewables on the grid but we still pay the price set by gas generation. It might "work" - and serve the interests of the current players - but it's not in the best interest of industry, the country (i.e. us) or the economy.
A real way to solve the problem would be to stockpile gas in the summer when the prices are low so we can use it in winter like much of Europe. Instead, the government refuses to invest in domestic gas storage and instead buying at peak prices in the winter from Norway and Qatar who rinse us every year.
 

Bald Rick

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Instead, the government refuses to invest in domestic gas storage and instead buying at peak prices in the winter from Norway and Qatar who rinse us every year.

Norway yes, but we only get 1% of our gas from Qatar. We get more from Algeria than Qatar. The US is the second largest import supplier.

The best way to solve the problem is to reduce our use of gas altogether, which is exactly what we are doing. Albeit not quickly enough in my view.
 

JamesT

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A real way to solve the problem would be to stockpile gas in the summer when the prices are low so we can use it in winter like much of Europe. Instead, the government refuses to invest in domestic gas storage and instead buying at peak prices in the winter from Norway and Qatar who rinse us every year.
If stockpiling gas made sense, then gas companies would be doing it already and making money on the difference. Instead they’re demanding subsidies to do so.
 

quantinghome

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If stockpiling gas made sense, then gas companies would be doing it already and making money on the difference. Instead they’re demanding subsidies to do so.
Correct. Storage is a long term investment. The gas price is not volatile enough for a commercial return to be made, or at least it's quite a risky investment.
 

Bald Rick

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Correct. Storage is a long term investment. The gas price is not volatile enough for a commercial return to be made, or at least it's quite a risky investment.

Looking at it another way. The UK has about two weeks worth of gas storage at winter rates of consumption. The amount of gas the UK consumes is reducing. If (say) in 10 years the amount of gas consumed has reduced by 50%, then in theory we have 4 weeks worth of gas storage without any investment in gas storage.

There is though a large amount of investment into electricity storage, both medium term snd short term, and that will be the one of the reasons our gas consumption falls.
 

mpthomson

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Solar farms take up a tiny proportion of land area and in any case are perfectly compatible with using the land for pasture. Turns out animals quite like shade.
You won't find any cows (they're heavy and break things) or any more than a slack handul of sheep on any solar farm. If there are sheep at all it's at about 10% of the number that could have used the land before. They're not remotely 'compatible with using the land for pasture', that's nonsense.

And the land is usless for growing arable crops, which is the more important concern as just about all of these farms are sited on what used to be arable land.
 

quantinghome

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You won't find any cows (they're heavy and break things) or any more than a slack handul of sheep on any solar farm. If there are sheep at all it's at about 10% of the number that could have used the land before. They're not remotely 'compatible with using the land for pasture', that's nonsense.

And the land is usless for growing arable crops, which is the more important concern as just about all of these farms are sited on what used to be arable land.
Fair enough, I stand corrected.

It is however still true that commercial scale solar farms will take up a tiny proportion of arable land overall. The planned rollout of 90GW of solar by 2050 will take up 0.6% of UK land at most, which is less area than golf courses. There are many types of development which reduce our available arable land. It's not clear to me why solar farms are being singled out as especially problematic, particularly as they are easy to reverse (unlike many other forms of development).
 

AndrewE

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You won't find any cows (they're heavy and break things) or any more than a slack handful of sheep on any solar farm. If there are sheep at all it's at about 10% of the number that could have used the land before. They're not remotely 'compatible with using the land for pasture', that's nonsense.

And the land is useless for growing arable crops, which is the more important concern as just about all of these farms are sited on what used to be arable land.
I think your assertions are extreme positions which can be mitigated in practise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrivoltaics is nowhere near as negative, actually says
Sheep are the most common choice for grazers.[49][47] In return, sheep or goats receive forage and shade.[50] System operators typically rent the sheep, which can be less expensive than mowing. Studies reported higher crop mass[51] or lower mass but higher forage quality, achieving similar spring lamb production to open pastures.[52][50] Grazing around in Australia yields a higher volume and quality of wool.
and what actually matters (in terms of take-up) is the farmers' incomes. If they can get rent for the ground the panels are on (and maybe a payment for some of the power generated) - and then don't have to control the grass growth - and can sell the sheep and lambs as well then who are we (you) to assert that it doesn't work?

I have also seen reports of N-S vertical bifacial panels widely spaced with arable crops in between. Can you show any evidence that
the land is useless for growing arable crops
 

MicroLithium

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I think your assertions are extreme positions which can be mitigated in practise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrivoltaics is nowhere near as negative, actually says

and what actually matters (in terms of take-up) is the farmers' incomes. If they can get rent for the ground the panels are on (and maybe a payment for some of the power generated) - and then don't have to control the grass growth - and can sell the sheep and lambs as well then who are we (you) to assert that it doesn't work?

I have also seen reports of N-S vertical bifacial panels widely spaced with arable crops in between. Can you show any evidence that
The land often is economically useless for arable, but not because it’s got panels on it. Farmers aren’t daft and it’s mainly low grade land being taken out of cultivation, now that the Basic Payment Scheme subsidies are gone and there’s more risk on input costs
 

JamesT

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On average fuel hedging will lose the government money, because if it didn't the counterparty would never agree to the contract as they wouldn't make money.

The government can absorb any serious fuel shock if it choses, so there is little incentive to hedge.

Do TPE managed stations have any manned ticket offices? I know they manage a handful of stations - those are probably all for the chop.
Sure, like self-insurance, if you're big enough you can cover it and not pay the premium for someone else to carry the risk. But, if that's government policy then they should be covering the cost, not telling DfTO to start making cuts because the budget was predicated on previously lower fuel costs.
 

mpthomson

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I think your assertions are extreme positions which can be mitigated in practise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrivoltaics is nowhere near as negative, actually says

and what actually matters (in terms of take-up) is the farmers' incomes. If they can get rent for the ground the panels are on (and maybe a payment for some of the power generated) - and then don't have to control the grass growth - and can sell the sheep and lambs as well then who are we (you) to assert that it doesn't work?

I have also seen reports of N-S vertical bifacial panels widely spaced with arable crops in between. Can you show any evidence that
Not by the large majority of schemes currently going through planning in East Yorks, none of which have large gaps and all of which are on fertile land previously used for cereal crops. These sytems may exist in theory but they aren't what are being proposed in most places in practice. None of the current fields use have any stock on them at all as those farmers aren't stock farmers.

The benefit for farmers is a stable income stream not subject to commodity prices and after the poor crops of the last couple of years due to weather I can see the attraction, but certainly round us it's taking valuable crop production land out of use.
 

quantinghome

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The benefit for farmers is a stable income stream not subject to commodity prices and after the poor crops of the last couple of years due to weather I can see the attraction, but certainly round us it's taking valuable crop production land out of use.
Valuable to who? Clearly not the farmers.

Perhaps it's valuable to the nation as a whole so we can ensure we have sufficient food? That's a fair question, but one which is answered at the national level, not locally. If you are concerned about the nation's overall food supply it doesn't really whether there is a local concentration of solar farms, as it's the total amount of land lost that counts. And as I said earlier, solar will only take up 0.6% of UK land at the very most, less than golf courses.

Looking in more detail when it comes to self sufficiency, the UK does well on cereals, meat and dairy. We are basically self-sufficient for those. So a slight reduction in cereal production is unlikely to be a problem, and as others have pointed out farmers aren't stupid and will tend to prioritise their least productive land. By contrast we are heavily dependent on imports for fresh vegetables and particularly fresh fruit. But as far as I can see solar farms tend not to be built on land previously used for fruit and veg farming.
 

Uncle Buck

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Looking in more detail when it comes to self sufficiency, the UK does well on cereals, meat and dairy. We are basically self-sufficient for those.
My understanding is that while we are technically self-sufficient in meat and dairy we are not self-sufficient in the feeds which the animals consume?
 

Ianigsy

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It would be interesting to know how much business the ticket offices at Dewsbury, Selby and Stalybridge do after the morning peak. I can see some of the ticket offices being moved to a single shift, say 6.00-lunchtime, as a lot of staffed ticket offices in the south east are.

Not exactly an ideal time for TPE to be trying to make economies, particularly on diesel costs, as timetables changing from week to week is going to make it hard to put a plan together. They probably have more 185s than they need with the reduced Manchester-Leeds service level.
 

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