Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

[Teapot42]

Diesel buses have continuous light units running the whole length of the bus. The e-Citaro has a few narrow panels in the ceiling. The drivers seem to be told to only switch half of them on, presumably to save energy,

If they are being told this then whoever is doing the telling is deluded. Assuming the lights are even moderately efficient LEDs they'll use a tiny fraction of a percent of the battery capacity. The effect on range will be so minimal as to be difficult to measure.

 

[Intro298]

He is correct about BEV buses sacrificing the niceties of saloon layout. The best example is the Mercedes e-Citaro. The massive cubicle at the back left narrows the aisle so much, blocks the left-side view for the passengers in the right-side seats completely and makes the bus so dark and depressing.

Diesel buses have continuous light units running the whole length of the bus. The e-Citaro has a few narrow panels in the ceiling. The drivers seem to be told to only switch half of them on, presumably to save energy, so there are 3 illuminated for the whole bus. In some seats, such as the front two seats, you are sitting in complete darkness at night. Most seats are so poorly illuminated, that you could not read a book. For people with partial sight it is very discriminatory.

All of the 'issues' that you've mentioned are also features that are present on the diesel Citaro C2, and aren't exclusive to the eCitaro.

I am however, unaware if there are any UK diesel Citaros that have the new ceiling light design as this was only introduced in the late 2010s.

 

[Towers]

If they are being told this then whoever is doing the telling is deluded. Assuming the lights are even moderately efficient LEDs they'll use a tiny fraction of a percent of the battery capacity. The effect on range will be so minimal as to be difficult to measure.

That being said, reduced or half lighting appears to have become the norm across many fleets even on diesel vehicles in recent years, so it wouldn’t surprise me if it’s just ‘policy’?

 

[callum3490]

All of the 'issues' that you've mentioned are also features that are present on the diesel Citaro C2, and aren't exclusive to the eCitaro.

I am however, unaware if there are any UK diesel Citaros that have the new ceiling light design as this was only introduced in the late 2010s.

The citaros in use on transdev flyer services have the same light design as the ecitaros

 

[Resuwen]

It is currently taking delivery of a batch of GB Kite Electroliners.

And is also getting a batch of Wright Electroliner double deckers

 

[Whatshappin]

Around 400 Scarborough workers employed by bus maker Alexander Dennis will strike over pay, Unite, the UK’s leading union, said today.

Scarborough Alexander Dennis bus makers to strike over pay

Around 400 Scarborough workers employed by bus maker Alexander Dennis will strike over pay, Unite, the UK’s leading union, said today.

www.thescarboroughnews.co.uk

 

[Mikey C]

Scarborough Alexander Dennis bus makers to strike over pay

Around 400 Scarborough workers employed by bus maker Alexander Dennis will strike over pay, Unite, the UK’s leading union, said today.

www.thescarboroughnews.co.uk

Ridiculous timing, when ADL are really struggling in the market, and are laying off workers in Scotland.

 

[Spsf3232]

Ridiculous timing, when ADL are really struggling in the market, and are laying off workers in Scotland.

So workers should just sit back and accept poor pay and conditions because the current market doesn't support it? No

 

[m79900]

So workers should just sit back and accept poor pay and conditions because the current market doesn't support it? No

Agreed, but if its a choice between a slightly low paid job and no job, with no prospect of work because there's hundreds in the same boat, then I know what I'd choose.

 

[Russel]

Ridiculous timing, when ADL are really struggling in the market, and are laying off workers in Scotland.

It does strike me as Turkeys voting for Christmas.

So workers should just sit back and accept poor pay and conditions because the current market doesn't support it? No

They will have even more to complain about when they don't have jobs.

It's not like the railway or NHS where the taxpayer picks up the tab.

 

[Wyrleybart]

It does strike me as Turkeys voting for Christmas.



They will have even more to complain about when they don't have jobs.

It's not like the railway or NHS where the taxpayer picks up the tab.

Have to agree Russel, much as it is not a pleasant thought. New buses are pouring into England off ships from China. Unless ADL can at l;east match them the buscos will buy the cheaper buses. Simple as.
Perhaps what is needed is a Trumpian type tariff where imports from China are simply not attractive, but here in Jolly old England we don't do that

 

[busesrusuk]

It does strike me as Turkeys voting for Christmas.



They will have even more to complain about when they don't have jobs.

It's not like the railway or NHS where the taxpayer picks up the tab.

Absent from the discussion about this particular strike is what the current pay rates are and how do they compare to other jobs in the locale. Unless that is known we can't speculate as to how good or bad their pay is in comparison to similar roles

 

[Russel]

Have to agree Russel, much as it is not a pleasant thought. New buses are pouring into England off ships from China. Unless ADL can at l;east match them the buscos will buy the cheaper buses. Simple as.
Perhaps what is needed is a Trumpian type tariff where imports from China are simply not attractive, but here in Jolly old England we don't do that

I'm all in favour of everyone being paid a fair wage for the job they do, but at the same time, stuff from China is flooding the market as you say, so the Unions need to tread very carefully with this one, a pay rise is no good if ADL decide they can no longer afford to keep Scarborough open.

Absent from the discussion about this particular strike is what the current pay rates are and how do they compare to other jobs in the locale. Unless that is known we can't speculate as to how good or bad their pay is in comparison to similar roles

You're right, we don't know the details, but whatever they are earning is going to be a lot more than JSA and this is the point we're making, asking for a pay rise from a company currently making redundancies is a risky game to play.

 

[nick291]

Have to agree Russel, much as it is not a pleasant thought. New buses are pouring into England off ships from China. Unless ADL can at l;east match them the buscos will buy the cheaper buses. Simple as.
Perhaps what is needed is a Trumpian type tariff where imports from China are simply not attractive, but here in Jolly old England we don't do that

I agree to an extent, but if the overseas product is better than the homegrown version then is it any wonder that OpCo's tend to choose them? I am very fond of the Yutong U11DD and E12's here at First West of England and don't sound like they want to rattle to bits every second unlike the majority of my rides on anything made by ADL since about 2014 to be honest. It's not that ADL are incapable of making a good product(ALX 400, Plaxton Elite interdeck just to name some), it just doesn't match that of its competitors I feel.

 

[Russel]

I agree to an extent, but if the overseas product is better than the homegrown version then is it any wonder that OpCo's tend to choose them? I am very fond of the Yutong U11DD and E12's here at First West of England and don't sound like they want to rattle to bits every second unlike the majority of my rides on anything made by ADL since about 2014 to be honest. It's not that ADL are incapable of making a good product(ALX 400, Plaxton Elite interdeck just to name some), it just doesn't match that of its competitors I feel.

Which is why any industrial action needs to be very carefully considered and potential consequences weighted up.

 

[Trainman40083]

Which is why any industrial action needs to be very carefully considered and potential consequences weighted up.

I share that view ... I strongly suspect my local operator, who had bought Plaxtons / ADL products for as long as I can remember, is about to buy from elsewhere.

 

[Russel]

I share that view ... I strongly suspect my local operator, who had bought Plaxtons / ADL products for as long as I can remember, is about to buy from elsewhere.

Stagecoach were pure ADL for many years, but that policy changed a couple of years ago and now seem to buy from multiple suppliers, that must be hurting ADL.

 

[Teapot42]

Stagecoach were pure ADL for many years, but that policy changed a couple of years ago and now seem to buy from multiple suppliers, that must be hurting ADL.

Probably influenced by the fact ADL and Stagecoach had owners in common.

To me, this speaks to a wider political problem however. Western governments, not just the UK, have sleepwalked in to a situation where China controls a significant amount of the manufacturing supply chain across multiple industries. There has been support from the PRC government for them to invest, and for Chinese to get a good education at Western universities. Rather than recognise the long term threat this presented, most nations have taken the path of greed by taking cheap products, moving their supply chains to China and letting Chinese students support their education system.

No one in power seems to have considered the longer term implications of this, which are many. We've lost countless skilled manufacturing jobs; people who once earned a good wage, paid good taxes in to the exchequer, now stack shelves in Tesco or drive Amazon vans for a living. (Jobs which themselves are under threat from advancing technology) Companies have had little incentive to invest when they can just outsource to China and get parts of equal quality at lower cost. Universities which rebuilt campuses on the back of Chinese student fees are now struggling when numbers have dropped, and Chinese universities have soared up the rankings now they have a local talent pool. School leavers are finding it harder to justify getting in to debt to take a degree when the jobs they'd normally move in to no longer exist within our economy.

While we were talking about cheap Chinese tat, they were building quality and local capability and are now in a position where they can build every bit as good if not better quality products at a lower price. It's not just about ADL not being able to build a bus that doesn't rattle, it's about Yutong having access to battery and motor suppliers who have factories just down the road from them, who source raw materials from local mines, which are refined locally. Even if ADL put together buses that were totally fault free and really well designed, they still wouldn't have the same access to parts and suppliers to be able to match or even get near the pricing.

A tariff on Chinese products would help offset the loss in taxes and the higher social security costs of not having the skilled work here in the UK, but unless we as a country invest properly in rebuilding the end to end supply chains then it's just a sticking plaster on an amputated limb.

 

[Mikey C]

My part of London is full of new BYD electric buses, both single and double decker variants, and very nice they are too.

 

[Trainman40083]

Stagecoach were pure ADL for many years, but that policy changed a couple of years ago and now seem to buy from multiple suppliers, that must be hurting ADL.

Wasn't Souter (Stagecoach) a major shareholder?ah yes message #2388

 

[MotCO]

Probably influenced by the fact ADL and Stagecoach had owners in common.

To me, this speaks to a wider political problem however. Western governments, not just the UK, have sleepwalked in to a situation where China controls a significant amount of the manufacturing supply chain across multiple industries. There has been support from the PRC government for them to invest, and for Chinese to get a good education at Western universities. Rather than recognise the long term threat this presented, most nations have taken the path of greed by taking cheap products, moving their supply chains to China and letting Chinese students support their education system.

No one in power seems to have considered the longer term implications of this, which are many. We've lost countless skilled manufacturing jobs; people who once earned a good wage, paid good taxes in to the exchequer, now stack shelves in Tesco or drive Amazon vans for a living. (Jobs which themselves are under threat from advancing technology) Companies have had little incentive to invest when they can just outsource to China and get parts of equal quality at lower cost. Universities which rebuilt campuses on the back of Chinese student fees are now struggling when numbers have dropped, and Chinese universities have soared up the rankings now they have a local talent pool. School leavers are finding it harder to justify getting in to debt to take a degree when the jobs they'd normally move in to no longer exist within our economy.

While we were talking about cheap Chinese tat, they were building quality and local capability and are now in a position where they can build every bit as good if not better quality products at a lower price. It's not just about ADL not being able to build a bus that doesn't rattle, it's about Yutong having access to battery and motor suppliers who have factories just down the road from them, who source raw materials from local mines, which are refined locally. Even if ADL put together buses that were totally fault free and really well designed, they still wouldn't have the same access to parts and suppliers to be able to match or even get near the pricing.

A tariff on Chinese products would help offset the loss in taxes and the higher social security costs of not having the skilled work here in the UK, but unless we as a country invest properly in rebuilding the end to end supply chains then it's just a sticking plaster on an amputated limb.

I fully concur

 

[SLTRegular]

In Australia they have percentage based content for Chinese buses so a bus must have say 40% local content saving jobs here but trying to make awful Yutongs better as an example.

 

[duncombec]

A tariff on Chinese products would help offset the loss in taxes and the higher social security costs of not having the skilled work here in the UK, but unless we as a country invest properly in rebuilding the end to end supply chains then it's just a sticking plaster on an amputated limb.

To which China would respond with retaliatory tariffs or export controls - I can't remember the exact figure offhand, but last week's Economist suggested something like 80% of the rare earth metals used in batteries come from China (and those that don't come from the DRC, which carries ethical issues in its own right). China is very good at stinging back where it hurts - Australia and Japan have both found out to their cost in recent years.

For good or ill, whether you think it's good or bad, we as a nation chose to outsource, and still refer to "made in China" as equivalent to "cheap tat", without realising that is no longer true and in some areas hasn't been for decades. One wonders if we'd have the same "problem" if Yutong were, say, a Malaysian company, or BYD an Indonesian one.

And let's not forget that some of the damage has been entirely self-inflicted: nobody made Optare remove its own business by deciding to restrict sales of its most popular model and hashing up a new one so drastically!

 

[Trainman40083]

To which China would respond with retaliatory tariffs or export controls - I can't remember the exact figure offhand, but last week's Economist suggested something like 80% of the rare earth metals used in batteries come from China (and those that don't come from the DRC, which carries ethical issues in its own right). China is very good at stinging back where it hurts - Australia and Japan have both found out to their cost in recent years.

For good or ill, whether you think it's good or bad, we as a nation chose to outsource, and still refer to "made in China" as equivalent to "cheap tat", without realising that is no longer true and in some areas hasn't been for decades. One wonders if we'd have the same "problem" if Yutong were, say, a Malaysian company, or BYD an Indonesian one.

And let's not forget that some of the damage has been entirely self-inflicted: nobody made Optare remove its own business by deciding to restrict sales of its most popular model and hashing up a new one so drastically!

I worked in the railway supply chain when China put restrictions on the export of rare earth metals. It all but killed supply of AWS magnets, used in AWS signalling.... Nowadays there is even more reliance on them, although I did think there was a source in South America too. So, fall out with China, you pretty much **** many industries down. Telecoms, batteries so many other areas. Likewise if something happened to Taiwan, the semi conductor market (used in most electrical items) would inflict megga pain.

 

[Bornin1980s]

I worked in the railway supply chain when China put restrictions on the export of rare earth metals. It all but killed supply of AWS magnets, used in AWS signalling.... Nowadays there is even more reliance on them, although I did think there was a source in South America too. So, fall out with China, you pretty much **** many industries down. Telecoms, batteries so many other areas. Likewise if something happened to Taiwan, the semi conductor market (used in most electrical items) would inflict megga pain.

When was that? And where did the rare earth metals come from in the days of steam?

 

[37114]

Ridiculous timing, when ADL are really struggling in the market, and are laying off workers in Scotland.

The workers might win the battle (I.e. no Falkirk to be used as a threat to get Scarborough to play nicely so ADL cough up) but lose the war if ADL go under.

Unless something changes, I would imagine the American owners must be weighing up pulling the plug on ADL.. They need volume fleet orders to sustain the business, particularly with the move to Electrification where they seem to be landing next to no orders

- Stagecoach- Buying Wright in London and a mix of Volvo and Yutong (with some ADL) elsewhere

- First - Mostly Yutong and Wright repowers with a Handful of E100 and E200 for Bath

- Arriva Some ADL diesels but hardly any electrics

- Go Ahead - Used to buy loads of ADL, now with Wright for Electric

- London - Most operators have gone for BYD, Wright or Volvo

- Northern PTEs (eg Bee Network) - Mix of ADL and Wright but most recent deliveries are Wright.

Yes there are odd orders like Reading and Falcon Buses but the EV range is not setting the world alight and that should be a big concern to the leadership.

 

[Mikey C]

To which China would respond with retaliatory tariffs or export controls - I can't remember the exact figure offhand, but last week's Economist suggested something like 80% of the rare earth metals used in batteries come from China (and those that don't come from the DRC, which carries ethical issues in its own right). China is very good at stinging back where it hurts - Australia and Japan have both found out to their cost in recent years.

For good or ill, whether you think it's good or bad, we as a nation chose to outsource, and still refer to "made in China" as equivalent to "cheap tat", without realising that is no longer true and in some areas hasn't been for decades. One wonders if we'd have the same "problem" if Yutong were, say, a Malaysian company, or BYD an Indonesian one.

And let's not forget that some of the damage has been entirely self-inflicted: nobody made Optare remove its own business by deciding to restrict sales of its most popular model and hashing up a new one so drastically!

It's not outsourcing though, it's buying from a foreign supplier who happens to be cheaper/better than domestic ones.

And in terms of UK jobs, no different from an MCV bodied Volvo or a Mercedes Citaro. Indeed the Yutongs will have more UK input, as they are finished here.

 

[Trainman40083]

When was that? And where did the rare earth metals come from in the days of steam?

Well in the days of steam they used mechanical signals with no AWS track magnets. I'd be guessing when it was. Maybe 1990/1995...Could easily have shut down most rail mainlines.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2026 ==

The workers might win the battle (I.e. no Falkirk to be used as a threat to get Scarborough to play nicely so ADL cough up) but lose the war if ADL go under.

Unless something changes, I would imagine the American owners must be weighing up pulling the plug on ADL.. They need volume fleet orders to sustain the business, particularly with the move to Electrification where they seem to be landing next to no orders

- Stagecoach- Buying Wright in London and a mix of Volvo and Yutong (with some ADL) elsewhere

- First - Mostly Yutong and Wright repowers with a Handful of E100 and E200 for Bath

- Arriva Some ADL diesels but hardly any electrics

- Go Ahead - Used to buy loads of ADL, now with Wright for Electric

- London - Most operators have gone for BYD, Wright or Volvo

- Northern PTEs (eg Bee Network) - Mix of ADL and Wright but most recent deliveries are Wright.

Yes there are odd orders like Reading and Falcon Buses but the EV range is not setting the world alight and that should be a big concern to the leadership.

The question has to be. How much are ADL having to discount to win the big fleet orders they are? Didn't Stagecoach moved orders from ADL to Yutong to get the required delivery dates? Devon?

 

[Teapot42]

To which China would respond with retaliatory tariffs or export controls - I can't remember the exact figure offhand, but last week's Economist suggested something like 80% of the rare earth metals used in batteries come from China (and those that don't come from the DRC, which carries ethical issues in its own right). China is very good at stinging back where it hurts - Australia and Japan have both found out to their cost in recent years.

Which highlights my point exactly - we are at the point where we can't protect our own industries because they are so reliant on China that if we try to do so we get punished.

This is why we need to be focusing on supply chain, both domestic and with like-minded countries. The two problems are going to be the allergy to state support in Europe, and the fact we've already got in significant debt as a country where such a project would need capital up-front.

 

[Richard Scott]

Probably influenced by the fact ADL and Stagecoach had owners in common.

To me, this speaks to a wider political problem however. Western governments, not just the UK, have sleepwalked in to a situation where China controls a significant amount of the manufacturing supply chain across multiple industries. There has been support from the PRC government for them to invest, and for Chinese to get a good education at Western universities. Rather than recognise the long term threat this presented, most nations have taken the path of greed by taking cheap products, moving their supply chains to China and letting Chinese students support their education system.

No one in power seems to have considered the longer term implications of this, which are many. We've lost countless skilled manufacturing jobs; people who once earned a good wage, paid good taxes in to the exchequer, now stack shelves in Tesco or drive Amazon vans for a living. (Jobs which themselves are under threat from advancing technology) Companies have had little incentive to invest when they can just outsource to China and get parts of equal quality at lower cost. Universities which rebuilt campuses on the back of Chinese student fees are now struggling when numbers have dropped, and Chinese universities have soared up the rankings now they have a local talent pool. School leavers are finding it harder to justify getting in to debt to take a degree when the jobs they'd normally move in to no longer exist within our economy.

While we were talking about cheap Chinese tat, they were building quality and local capability and are now in a position where they can build every bit as good if not better quality products at a lower price. It's not just about ADL not being able to build a bus that doesn't rattle, it's about Yutong having access to battery and motor suppliers who have factories just down the road from them, who source raw materials from local mines, which are refined locally. Even if ADL put together buses that were totally fault free and really well designed, they still wouldn't have the same access to parts and suppliers to be able to match or even get near the pricing.

A tariff on Chinese products would help offset the loss in taxes and the higher social security costs of not having the skilled work here in the UK, but unless we as a country invest properly in rebuilding the end to end supply chains then it's just a sticking plaster on an amputated limb.

Exactly, points I've made for many years but seems too many people don't get it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2026 ==

My part of London is full of new BYD electric buses, both single and double decker variants, and very nice they are too.

Went on a BYD in London, route 188 I think, and it was worst bus I've been on in years. Very unimpressed and ended up thinking BYD stood for Build Your Disappointment.