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Euro 2028: Manchester - Liverpool Corridor

Ellis101

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With the Euros heading to the North West in 2028, I’m wondering how things are going to shape up, specifically on the Liverpool to Manchester (CLC) line.

Most international fans landing at Manchester Airport will inevitably end up at Piccadilly and then look for the quickest route to Liverpool. That leaves them funnelled onto the CLC, which is already suffering from capacity constraints—for example, the December 2023 Northern timetable alterations (terminating trains at Warrington instead of Manchester), especially when compared to the "recently" electrified Chat Moss and its small, albeit useful, four-tracking in sections.

With it being still largely unelectrified and at capacity, I can’t see how that route is going to handle the surge in match-day demand without issues. Are there ideas on how this might be managed? I wonder if they’ll implement dedicated, high-frequency shuttles between Liverpool South Parkway and Lime Street to clear the pressure for those arriving via Liverpool Airport, but even that doesn’t solve the bottleneck on the main line itself.

Realistically, with the limited time frame, maybe something like a few passing loops could be a big benefit. I say "realistically," but Network Rail is super busy with TRU; this can be seen by the reasoning for the delay of Liverpool Baltic station—but that's a story for another day.

It feels like if we don't have a solid plan to bypass the capacity issues on that corridor, the whole transport network for the tournament is going to be a massive headache.

I could just be overthinking this... but its just something that popped into my head.
 
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Stossgebet

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Follow the New York/New Jersey example of $100 train tickets

Or more likely, just muddle through it, telling locals that they might wish to avoid travelling on certain routes at certain times, around the matches.
 

mmh

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It's only 5 matches over a 13 day period, so there'll be no new infrastructure for it.
 

SynthD

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Can they run longer trains that only stop at key stations, even if they aren’t faster? That works for Chiltern when the WCML is closed.
 

The Planner

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They will strengthen where they can. Lot of work going into the Euros already.
 

frodshamfella

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With the Euros heading to the North West in 2028, I’m wondering how things are going to shape up, specifically on the Liverpool to Manchester (CLC) line.

Most international fans landing at Manchester Airport will inevitably end up at Piccadilly and then look for the quickest route to Liverpool. That leaves them funnelled onto the CLC, which is already suffering from capacity constraints—for example, the December 2023 Northern timetable alterations (terminating trains at Warrington instead of Manchester), especially when compared to the "recently" electrified Chat Moss and its small, albeit useful, four-tracking in sections.

With it being still largely unelectrified and at capacity, I can’t see how that route is going to handle the surge in match-day demand without issues. Are there ideas on how this might be managed? I wonder if they’ll implement dedicated, high-frequency shuttles between Liverpool South Parkway and Lime Street to clear the pressure for those arriving via Liverpool Airport, but even that doesn’t solve the bottleneck on the main line itself.

Realistically, with the limited time frame, maybe something like a few passing loops could be a big benefit. I say "realistically," but Network Rail is super busy with TRU; this can be seen by the reasoning for the delay of Liverpool Baltic station—but that's a story for another day.

It feels like if we don't have a solid plan to bypass the capacity issues on that corridor, the whole transport network for the tournament is going to be a massive headache.

I could just be overthinking this... but its just something that popped into my head.
The Liverpool Metro Mayor is planning introduce a rapid transit vehicles with dedicated routes from Liverpool Airport to South Parkway and the city centre. I don't know when this will be ready, but imagine quite a lot of work needs to be done firstly.
 

HST43257

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I would back a bit of service segregation for longer and more reliable trains, even if you can’t run more trains.

For example, the Hope Valley services could find space in Piccadilly main shed, with a dedicated half hourly Airport-Picc-OxRd-Warrington-SouthPway-LimeSt service thats as long as possible helping people across the CLC. Urmston etc can deal with the slow services.

I believe for the Queen’s lying-in-state/funeral or King’s Coronation there was a class 47 tnt with a long rake of coaches running the CLC, can’t remember details but would be good to see if it can work again
 

Djgr

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With the Euros heading to the North West in 2028, I’m wondering how things are going to shape up, specifically on the Liverpool to Manchester (CLC) line.

Most international fans landing at Manchester Airport will inevitably end up at Piccadilly and then look for the quickest route to Liverpool. That leaves them funnelled onto the CLC, which is already suffering from capacity constraints—for example, the December 2023 Northern timetable alterations (terminating trains at Warrington instead of Manchester), especially when compared to the "recently" electrified Chat Moss and its small, albeit useful, four-tracking in sections.

With it being still largely unelectrified and at capacity, I can’t see how that route is going to handle the surge in match-day demand without issues. Are there ideas on how this might be managed? I wonder if they’ll implement dedicated, high-frequency shuttles between Liverpool South Parkway and Lime Street to clear the pressure for those arriving via Liverpool Airport, but even that doesn’t solve the bottleneck on the main line itself.

Realistically, with the limited time frame, maybe something like a few passing loops could be a big benefit. I say "realistically," but Network Rail is super busy with TRU; this can be seen by the reasoning for the delay of Liverpool Baltic station—but that's a story for another day.

It feels like if we don't have a solid plan to bypass the capacity issues on that corridor, the whole transport network for the tournament is going to be a massive headache.

I could just be overthinking this... but its just something that popped into my head.
It will be a muddle through, with potentially a few additional trains thrown in (although Northern is not very good at doing this).

Some of the current Piccadilly trains to Liverpool do go via Chat Moss.

Also, there will probably be extra flights into Liverpool John Lennon and Merseytravel may well operate some kind of shuttle from there.
 

mmh

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I think a fair amount of overthinking may be going on here. It's really not going to be that big a deal.
 

6Gman

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I think a fair amount of overthinking may be going on here. It's really not going to be that big a deal.
Indeed.

The stadiums used will be no bigger than they are for regular football matches so the differences in passenger flows will surely be marginal.

A bit of strategic strengthening, advice to locals to avoid busy times, problem addressed (I won't say solved because trains could be very busy but that's not unusual).
 

The Planner

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I think a fair amount of overthinking may be going on here. It's really not going to be that big a deal.

Indeed.

The stadiums used will be no bigger than they are for regular football matches so the differences in passenger flows will surely be marginal.

A bit of strategic strengthening, advice to locals to avoid busy times, problem addressed (I won't say solved because trains could be very busy but that's not unusual).
Politically and the optics very much will be a big deal, especially for future North West bids for events.
 

Llandudno

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The Liverpool Metro Mayor is planning introduce a rapid transit vehicles with dedicated routes from Liverpool Airport to South Parkway and the city centre. I don't know when this will be ready, but imagine quite a lot of work needs to be done firstly.
The rapid transit vehicles are bendy buses…!

Remember them in Sheffield, London and Swansea, subsequently scrapped!
 

Bald Rick

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Most international fans landing at Manchester Airport will inevitably end up at Piccadilly and then look for the quickest route to Liverpool.

That’s quite an assumption.

Some will arrive at Liverpool Airport. Others will arrive from whichever city the previous match was at.

But the numbers of travelling internstional fans for each match won’t be that large. The majority of fans at each game will be British (or Irish for the matches in Dublin).

There’s a valid argument that had Old Trafford been selected as a venue, it would have seen more local people travelling to the matches there than in normal circumstances!
 
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Hadders

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The stadiums used will be no bigger than they are for regular football matches so the differences in passenger flows will surely be marginal.
That's true, but the dynamics of where people are travelling from will be different.

For example, smaller scale but last summer the Womens Rugby World Cup was held in England. Franklins Gardens home of Northampton Saints staged six matches, a club ground that has a 15k capacity and regularly sell out Premiership Rugby matches. While there are people (like me) who travel a significant distance to attend matches the majority of attendees come from the Northampton and Milton Keynes areas. The stadium also sold out for the WRWC matches but it was claimed that 80% of the attendees had never been to a rugby match at the stadium before.

If the same sort of thing happens at Euro 28 then that will change some travel patterns.
 

Bald Rick

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If the same sort of thing happens at Euro 28 then that will change some travel patterns.

No doubt. The tricky bit is that we won’t know until March 2028 for the full roster of teams, and later that that for who fills which slots in the groups (except for the home nations, should they qualify). It might be that France fans need to get from Glasgow - Cardiff - London for their group games, or it might be Moldova fans, or Denmark. Or anybody!

Having some games in Dublin helps matters, as the airlines will do much of that.
 

Howardh

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The Liverpool Metro Mayor is planning introduce a rapid transit vehicles with dedicated routes from Liverpool Airport to South Parkway and the city centre. I don't know when this will be ready, but imagine quite a lot of work needs to be done firstly.
That is something we could do with regardless of the Euros!
 

Ellis101

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The Liverpool Metro Mayor is planning introduce a rapid transit vehicles with dedicated routes from Liverpool Airport to South Parkway and the city centre. I don't know when this will be ready, but imagine quite a lot of work needs to be done firstly.
The “rapid transit in question” will just be bringing back bus lanes that were here until 2014.
 

Howardh

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The “rapid transit in question” will just be bringing back bus lanes that were here until 2014.
It's a start. Better still if they are dedicated transit buses that don't stop at normal stops!

I'm not sure, is there a non-stop bus already from the main station in Liverpool? I know the one from Parkway is local stopper from past experience?
 

Ellis101

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It's a start. Better still if they are dedicated transit buses that don't stop at normal stops!

I'm not sure, is there a non-stop bus already from the main station in Liverpool? I know the one from Parkway is local stopper from past experience?
The 500 bus is every 30 minutes express from Liverpool Airport - Liverpool ONE Bus station, but the 86A which is every 7/8 minutes stops at Liverpool South Parkway (which the 500 doesnt) and stops everywhere.

There used to be 10+ years ago a express bus called the 501 that was basically just the 500 but stopped at Liverpool South Parkway if I remember correctly, I don't know why they got rid of it but they did.
 

Howardh

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The 500 bus is every 30 minutes express from Liverpool Airport - Liverpool ONE Bus station, but the 86A which is every 7/8 minutes stops at Liverpool South Parkway (which the 500 doesnt) and stops everywhere.

There used to be 10+ years ago a express bus called the 501 that was basically just the 500 but stopped at Liverpool South Parkway if I remember correctly, I don't know why they got rid of it but they did.
I'm sure I recall a coach from Manchester to Liverpool Airport? Would be nice ifmajor towns (Bolton, Wigan, Stockport for eg) had a direct coach connection to Liverpool Airport, although very unlikely as I doubt the numbers using would justify.
But wonder if there was - maybe with subsidy from LJL - it could take pax away from Manchester?
Liverpool is far more appealing to me!
 

cle

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I imagine most foreign visitors will travel via London, and many domestic ones too (London having the highest number of European residents, or 'expats' as supremacists like to say) - - but yes, Manchester Airport to Liverpool - direct or via Piccadilly - will need 6 car trains and a few faster pattern extras.
 

frodshamfella

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It's a start. Better still if they are dedicated transit buses that don't stop at normal stops!

I'm not sure, is there a non-stop bus already from the main station in Liverpool? I know the one from Parkway is local stopper from past experience?
The city centre bus , the 500, I believe is a limited stopper to the city centre. There is a bus to South Parkway Station about every 10 mins from outside the terminal building, it stops but lt only takes about 10-15 mins, so its pretty quick. Of course from South Parkway you have Merseyrail to Central Station and beyond, and mainline services.
 

Polarbear

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The city centre bus , the 500, I believe is a limited stopper to the city centre. There is a bus to South Parkway Station about every 10 mins from outside the terminal building, it stops but lt only takes about 10-15 mins, so its pretty quick. Of course from South Parkway you have Merseyrail to Central Station and beyond, and mainline services.
Given the upcoming franchising of buses around Liverpool, it’s likely the position will change by 2028.

I’m sure that one proposal was to introduce a true express bus between Liverpool Airport & the city centre. Those routes will fall under the second phase of franchising in 2027.
 

Djgr

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Given the upcoming franchising of buses around Liverpool, it’s likely the position will change by 2028.

I’m sure that one proposal was to introduce a true express bus between Liverpool Airport & the city centre. Those routes will fall under the second phase of franchising in 2027.
Indeed one of the key changes from bus franchising will be better links to both Liverpool City Centre and Liverpool South Parkway. I believe that some details about these have already been released.

These links have existed for years but have been continually messed around with by the private operators.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I imagine most foreign visitors will travel via London, and many domestic ones too (London having the highest number of European residents, or 'expats' as supremacists like to say) - - but yes, Manchester Airport to Liverpool - direct or via Piccadilly - will need 6 car trains and a few faster pattern extras.
I think most foreign visitors will come via Manchester and Liverpool airports, as there are direct flights from most European airports, just not "British" Airways.
 
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cle

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I think most foreign visitors will come via Manchester and Liverpool airports, as there are direct flights from most European airports, just not "British" Airways.
Many would come for more than one match, I suspect. But again, I think there would be as many (e.g) French or Polish people living in London travelling, as fans coming from France or Poland.
 

Djgr

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Many would come for more than one match, I suspect. But again, I think there would be as many (e.g) French or Polish people living in London travelling, as fans coming from France or Poland.
Perhaps someone can provide figures to disapprove me but I would be astounded if the majority of "French or Polish people" resident in the United Kingdom live in London, given that only approximately 13.1% of the UK's population lives in London.
 

JamesT

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Perhaps someone can provide figures to disapprove me but I would be astounded if the majority of "French or Polish people" resident in the United Kingdom live in London, given that only approximately 13.1% of the UK's population lives in London.
It's not far off for the French. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_migration_to_the_United_Kingdom
Of the French-born people recorded by the 2011 census, 66,654 (48.4 per cent) lived in Greater London
Nowhere near for the Poles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_the_United_Kingdom
718,251 in England, of which 149,397 are in London.

Though that wasn't the claim @cle made, but that you would get as many coming from London as from the home country. Which is plausible as those that have moved to may be more affluent on average? And travelling within the UK will be considerably easier.
 

cle

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It's not far off for the French. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_migration_to_the_United_Kingdom

Nowhere near for the Poles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_the_United_Kingdom
718,251 in England, of which 149,397 are in London.

Though that wasn't the claim @cle made, but that you would get as many coming from London as from the home country. Which is plausible as those that have moved to may be more affluent on average? And travelling within the UK will be considerably easier.
Yeah I wasn't getting into population. And I know Polish folks are a lot more distributed. It was more the "If I was living in the UK from x European country, and my team came to UK for a tournament, I'd def try see them" - so knowing there are a lot of Europeans in London, still, they'd likely form a decent contingent of fans to their countries' games, and travel out to wherever. And probably by train! Which is the actual topic...

I live in the US now, and am absolutely seeing ENG PAN - and I expect way more Brits based here than Brits who flew over...(we earn much more lol) - but yes also a different type of journey :)
 

Djgr

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Yeah I wasn't getting into population. And I know Polish folks are a lot more distributed. It was more the "If I was living in the UK from x European country, and my team came to UK for a tournament, I'd def try see them" - so knowing there are a lot of Europeans in London, still, they'd likely form a decent contingent of fans to their countries' games, and travel out to wherever. And probably by train! Which is the actual topic...
But the implications for how to support travel to the Euros is very different depending on where people are travelling from. If they are all coming from London (e.g. French) then look to boost Avanti. If it is more distributed (e.g. Poles) then a different strategy is needed.

Not at all convinced that travel with be via London airports but rather into Liverpool/Manchester. Plenty of cheap direct flights from Central and Eastern Europe, whilst going via London airports is frankly a pain in the behind.
 

frodshamfella

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But the implications for how to support travel to the Euros is very different depending on where people are travelling from. If they are all coming from London (e.g. French) then look to boost Avanti. If it is more distributed (e.g. Poles) then a different strategy is needed.

Not at all convinced that travel with be via London airports but rather into Liverpool/Manchester. Plenty of cheap direct flights from Central and Eastern Europe, whilst going via London airports is frankly a pain in the behind.
Agree, no need at all to fly to London , when you can fly direct to Liverpool or Mancester.
 

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