Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[CSB0241]

I’m hearing
20 new Volvo B8RLE Evora
60 new Volvo B8L XLB split between Airlink, LothianCountry and East Coast. All due from early 2027/28

The diesel order has been confirmed in an article on Route-One - all 60 B8L/E400XLBs will be 12.8m and single-door.

Move towards zero-emission fleet is a nuanced one for Lothian - routeone

Lothian Buses is working towards a fully zero-emission bus fleet, but its breadth of operating conditions demand nuance, the firm says.

www.route-one.net

I’m going to be completely honest & say that I think that XLBs for Lothian Country is, to a degree, absolute tripe. There’s just too many stretches that I could not see an XLB being able to manage, irrespective of whether or not they’re only 12.8 metres in length - with the 43 there’s Burgess Road/The Loan + Queensferry Town Centre (the former of which is already a challenge with the current Gemini 3s), with the X19/71 there’s Station Road in Kirkliston, with the X27/X40 there’s the narrow streets through Calderwood, Kirknewton Main Street for the X28, most of Ratho for the 70, & Findry Road for the 72.

The only routes I could feasibly see XLBs working on with regards to the Country network are the X18 (which wouldn’t be a terrible shout I suppose), along with the 73 & 74, unless there’s anywhere along the 74 route I’m failing to remember that could be a challenge for XLBs. I’m a tad bit skeptical about some going to EastCoastBuses though I’m not tempted to rule it out as much as with Country since the only places I could see problems arising is if an XLB made it onto one of the North Berwick school routes, as the turning circle at NBHS to my recollection is a bit tight, & the 127 has the added risk of trying to navigate an XLB around the tiny roads in West Fenton.

Personally I don't think East Coast and Lothian Country will be getting tri-axles.
The wording in the article is:

"60 tri-axle Enviro400XLB double-decks, [and] 20 B8RLE with single-deck bodies".

"The majority of those will be for the East Coast and Lothian Country operations, although some of the Enviro400XLBs are for the Airlink 100" (my bold).

The word "those" I would interpret as referring to the most recent bus mentioned, which was the single-decks at the end of the previous paragraph. This is furthered by the mention of the "Enviro400XLB" in the middle of that sentence, not at the start, so I would interpret everything before the mention of "Enviro400XLB" as referring to something else, and everything after the mention of "Enviro400XLB" as referring to the XLB.

I sort of agree with this, though equally XLBs going to EastCoastBuses doesn’t seem insanely outlandish in my eyes.

 

[mb88]

I’m going to be completely honest & say that I think that XLBs for Lothian Country is, to a degree, absolute tripe. There’s just too many stretches that I could not see an XLB being able to manage, irrespective of whether or not they’re only 12.8 metres in length - with the 43 there’s Burgess Road/The Loan + Queensferry Town Centre (the former of which is already a challenge with the current Gemini 3s), with the X19/71 there’s Station Road in Kirkliston, with the X27/X40 there’s the narrow streets through Calderwood, Kirknewton Main Street for the X28, most of Ratho for the 70, & Findry Road for the 72.

Whether you think it’s ’tripe’ or not is neither here nor there. It’s happening, as has been confirmed both by internal comms and by an article in Route One magazine by the Lothian engineering director.

 

[ScotRail158725]

I’m going to be completely honest & say that I think that XLBs for Lothian Country is, to a degree, absolute tripe. There’s just too many stretches that I could not see an XLB being able to manage, irrespective of whether or not they’re only 12.8 metres in length

You would think Lothian are using something the length of an intercity train with that post

with the 43 there’s Burgess Road/The Loan + Queensferry Town Centre (the former of which is already a challenge with the current Gemini 3s),

The 43 has ran with XLBs before i’m pretty sure one done just as recent as a month or two ago

with the X19/71 there’s Station Road in Kirkliston,

Where about is this difficult to navigate, these XLBs? They are .8 metre longer than a B7RLE which used to use this route with ease on the 63 back in the day and more recently First/McGills on the 63 and X38

with the X27/X40 there’s the narrow streets through Calderwood,

a more valid point owing to street furniture but Lothian would be introducing XLBs if they couldnt fit

most of Ratho for the 70, & Findry Road for the 72.

The only routes I could feasibly see XLBs working on with regards to the Country network are the X18 (which wouldn’t be a terrible shout I suppose), along with the 73 & 74, unless there’s anywhere along the 74 route I’m failing to remember that could be a challenge for XLBs.

There’s equally as tight turns on the 74 as there is on the X27/28

 

[LothianBusesPh]

The only routes I could feasibly see XLBs working on with regards to the Country network are the X18 (which wouldn’t be a terrible shout I suppose), along with the 73 & 74, unless there’s anywhere along the 74 route I’m failing to remember that could be a challenge for XLBs. I’m a tad bit skeptical about some going to EastCoastBuses though I’m not tempted to rule it out as much as with Country since the only places I could see problems arising is if an XLB made it onto one of the North Berwick school routes, as the turning circle at NBHS to my recollection is a bit tight, & the 127 has the added risk of trying to navigate an XLB around the tiny roads in West Fenton.

What is the problem with East Coast Buses? Is everyone forgetting that the current B8RLE fleet there are longer? They are not too long for Lothian Country either.

 

[Lothianbus703]

I’m going to be completely honest & say that I think that XLBs for Lothian Country is, to a degree, absolute tripe. There’s just too many stretches that I could not see an XLB being able to manage, irrespective of whether or not they’re only 12.8 metres in length - with the 43 there’s Burgess Road/The Loan + Queensferry Town Centre (the former of which is already a challenge with the current Gemini 3s), with the X19/71 there’s Station Road in Kirkliston, with the X27/X40 there’s the narrow streets through Calderwood, Kirknewton Main Street for the X28, most of Ratho for the 70, & Findry Road for the 72.

The only routes I could feasibly see XLBs working on with regards to the Country network are the X18 (which wouldn’t be a terrible shout I suppose), along with the 73 & 74, unless there’s anywhere along the 74 route I’m failing to remember that could be a challenge for XLBs. I’m a tad bit skeptical about some going to EastCoastBuses though I’m not tempted to rule it out as much as with Country since the only places I could see problems arising is if an XLB made it onto one of the North Berwick school routes, as the turning circle at NBHS to my recollection is a bit tight, & the 127 has the added risk of trying to navigate an XLB around the tiny roads in West Fenton.


I sort of agree with this, though equally XLBs going to EastCoastBuses doesn’t seem insanely outlandish in my eyes.

Might pass this on to Lothian as im sure they hadn't risk assessed any of this already before ordering 60 of them.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Might pass this on to Lothian as im sure they hadn't risk assessed any of this already before ordering 60 of them.

There will be routes they’re restricted from doing, but in relative context this is no different to how the current ones aren’t ever on the 8.

I do think it will be interesting to see how they navigate Calderwood and Kirknewton and I suspect over time generally the X27/X28 won’t get them.

The obvious environment for the Country ones are the 43 and X18 and I suspect it will be these two where they are generally allocated. The numbers check out also. This then leaves the B5TL’s for the X27/X28 and X40 plus the peak extras. Hybrids then on 70/71, 72, 73 and 74.

 

[Spsf3232]

I’m going to be completely honest & say that I think that XLBs for Lothian Country is, to a degree, absolute tripe. There’s just too many stretches that I could not see an XLB being able to manage, irrespective of whether or not they’re only 12.8 metres in length - with the 43 there’s Burgess Road/The Loan + Queensferry Town Centre (the former of which is already a challenge with the current Gemini 3s), with the X19/71 there’s Station Road in Kirkliston, with the X27/X40 there’s the narrow streets through Calderwood, Kirknewton Main Street for the X28, most of Ratho for the 70, & Findry Road for the 72.

The only routes I could feasibly see XLBs working on with regards to the Country network are the X18 (which wouldn’t be a terrible shout I suppose), along with the 73 & 74, unless there’s anywhere along the 74 route I’m failing to remember that could be a challenge for XLBs. I’m a tad bit skeptical about some going to EastCoastBuses though I’m not tempted to rule it out as much as with Country since the only places I could see problems arising is if an XLB made it onto one of the North Berwick school routes, as the turning circle at NBHS to my recollection is a bit tight, & the 127 has the added risk of trying to navigate an XLB around the tiny roads in West Fenton.


I sort of agree with this, though equally XLBs going to EastCoastBuses doesn’t seem insanely outlandish in my eyes.

I assume from that post that your not a driver and have no experience of vehicles of this length and where they can go!

They can fit just about anywhere a normal 12-13m vehicle can with ease and infect I would rather take one of them in a tight road than a normal 2 axle vehicle just as I would rather a 14 or 15m coach with rear steering that I would take anywhere

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I assume from that post that your not a driver and have no experience of vehicles of this length and where they can go!

They can fit just about anywhere a normal 12-13m vehicle can with ease and infect I would rather take one of them in a tight road than a normal 2 axle vehicle just as I would rather a 14 or 15m coach with rear steering that I would take anywhere

How does this work when the rear axle is locked such as the case of the XLB’s? Not disputing your point, just curious. Is it just a case of taking turns slightly wider than a shorter vehicle? As is the case with buses in general.

 

[Busman757]

No issues with taking an XLB along Station Road in Kirkliston. I’ve done it on an Amazon Run!

 

[90019]

How does this work when the rear axle is locked such as the case of the XLB’s? Not disputing your point, just curious. Is it just a case of taking turns slightly wider than a shorter vehicle? As is the case with buses in general.

Because of the suspension setup they pivot closer to the drive axle than the tag axle, so the turning is pretty similar to a two axle vehicle but with a bit more tailswing.

 

[Lothianbus703]

Looks like the end of 7900H's 17/18/19/20/49 time in service (maybe that was a year ago for 49 despite its repaint), just seen a photo of them at Seafield works next to 628 which is waiting for a repaint.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Looks like the end of 7900H's 17/18/19/20/49 time in service (maybe that was a year ago for 49 despite its repaint), just seen a photo of them at Seafield works next to 628 which is waiting for a repaint.

18 is in a scrapyard near Linlithgow, it's not in that image at Seafield.

So far 197-199 have removed 17, 19 & 20, and 172 ended up replacing 18. Also, it's important to remember that 1/2 haven't officially been replaced yet (edit - 1021/2 returning allowed these two to go, but obviously those are deckers). I also want to add that although still at Longstone, 16 and 22 seem to be VOR.

If I had to guess we will see 172, 197-199 join the Central fleet alongside the GB Kite's to allow a phasing out of the 7900 fleet there. It's equally possible that a fleet of four 7900s will be maintained at Central and the B7RLEs stay where they are. If the B7RLEs do move then 31-34 would have to move to Longstone at minimum, it could be more depending on which 7900s are in line for withdrawal.

Overall, the nine Kites, 172 and 197-199 will allow 13 7900s to be withdrawn. So far that is 1/2, 17-20, with seven more to go. Alternatively 172 will go and one 7900 kept. If Central does move to a B7RLE/Kite fleet, then that could mean 190 at Central and 41 at Marine?
This could end up being 12-22 that are withdrawn. It's the obvious way but it does require more moving around. Alternatively it could be 7900s at Central which are withdrawn directly, perhaps 35-41?

I've left 49 out of this. I have no idea what's up with it.

 

[Lothianbus703]

18 is in a scrapyard near Linlithgow, it's not in that image at Seafield.

So far 197-199 have removed 17, 19 & 20, and 172 ended up replacing 18. Also, it's important to remember that 1/2 haven't officially been replaced yet. I also want to add that although still at Longstone, 16 and 22 seem to be VOR.

If I had to guess we will see 172, 197-199 join the Central fleet alongside the GB Kite's to allow a phasing out of the 7900 fleet there. It's equally possible that a fleet of four 7900s will be maintained at Central and the B7RLEs stay where they are. If the B7RLEs do move then 31-34 would have to move to Longstone at minimum, it could be more depending on which 7900s are in line for withdrawal.

Overall, the nine Kites, 172 and 197-199 will allow 13 7900s to be withdrawn. So far that is 1/2, 17-20, with seven more to go. Alternatively 172 will go and one 7900 kept. If Central does move to a B7RLE/Kite fleet, then that could mean 190 at Central and 41 at Marine?
This could end up being 12-22 that are withdrawn. It's the obvious way but it does require more moving around. Alternatively it could be 7900s at Central which are withdrawn directly, perhaps 35-41?

I've left 49 out of this. I have no idea what's up with it.

Although previously the usual order of events, I think the 7900s are withdrawn partially on a case by case situation rather than ordered as there are a few dotted around that havent been out with ones numbered lower still being used.
Although 16-20 (exc 18) might be numerical. Although 12-15 make it out sometimes but this could be because they are allocated trainers/spare.

 

[scosutsut]

Although previously the usual order of events, I think the 7900s are withdrawn partially on a case by case situation rather than ordered as there are a few dotted around that havent been out with ones numbered lower still being used.
Although 16-20 (exc 18) might be numerical. Although 12-15 make it out sometimes but this could be because they are allocated trainers/spare.

I do remember them all getting new batteries for the hybrid drivetrain a number of years back, I do wonder that they are being withdrawn when those fail, rather than replace them again?

 

[Lothianbus703]

I do remember them all getting new batteries for the hybrid drivetrain a number of years back, I do wonder that they are being withdrawn when those fail, rather than replace them again?

Could be that or just general issues, we will find out when they end up for sale.
Surprisingly to some people they actually sell quite well.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

Remember that 12-15 are able to be used for Plane Parking unlike the other ones.

 

[AndrewTaylor95]

Could be that or just general issues, we will find out when they end up for sale.
Surprisingly to some people they actually sell quite well.

They'll sell because they'll have been spannered properly at Lothian, anything Lothian sell there's probably a queue on the phone, The Gemini's JMB have bought are holding up to standard, they have a good maintenance record themselves with having a deal with Volvo also

 

[Avenger20]

I’m going to be completely honest & say that I think that XLBs for Lothian Country is, to a degree, absolute tripe.

Think what you will, but it's not tripe. Alexander Dennis have confirmed the order, and what they're intended for on their Facebook page this afternoon, the text from said post is copied below.

"We're going to build 60 new #Enviro400XLB double-deckers for Lothian Buses on the Volvo Bus UK & Ireland B8L chassis. The low-emission buses will have three axles and a length of 12.8m, around 1.3m longer than most of the Scottish operator’s two-axle double-deckers.

The majority of the new Enviro400XLB will be used to meet rising demand in the East Coast Buses and Lothian Country operations. The Airlink 100 service between Edinburgh airport and the city centre will also benefit from the fleet investment.

Dylan Dastey, Engineering Director at Lothian Buses, said: “Lothian is delighted to once again be working in partnership with Volvo and Alexander Dennis, building on our long‑standing relationships to deliver new double‑deck vehicles for our capital city.

“Since launching our Driving Towards Net Zero decarbonisation strategy in 2023, we have remained firmly focused on achieving our long‑term sustainability ambitions. At the same time, we continue to invest in renewing and modernising our fleet to ensure we provide safe, reliable and high‑quality services for our customers, both now and in the years ahead.

“This investment reflects our ongoing commitment to delivering the best possible customer experience, while supporting our wider ambition to fully decarbonise the fleet over the coming years.”

Our President & Managing Director Paul Davies said: “We’re delighted to be part of this Lothian Buses-led collaboration which will deliver a new fleet of double-deckers for the Scottish capital and neighbouring areas.

“We welcome Lothian’s support for British design, engineering and manufacturing and the impact that this project will have on jobs and supply chain.”

“We’re also delighted to be continuing our long-standing relationship with Volvo. Their B8L chassis offers a platform on which we have been able to design a version of our Enviro400XLB body that will allow Lothian to offer additional space to passengers, benefitting customers with accessibility needs and making bus travel more inclusive for everyone.

“We’re looking forward to partnering with Volvo to expand our range across the UK market and working closely with them on future opportunities.”

Domenico Bondi, Managing Director Volvo Bus UK & Ireland, said: “We are building on the cooperation that we have had back in 2018 which has been a successful project. We have a flexible business model working together with different bodybuilders and this is one example. The Volvo B8L is already a well-proven chassis and in service in many cities both in the UK and other countries. The new double deck will help to reduce road congestion and with it further improve air quality in Scotland’s capital city.”

The collaboration between Lothian Buses, Volvo and Alexander Dennis builds on successful earlier work between the three companies, under which 78 Alexander Dennis Enviro400XLB on Volvo B8L chassis – built to a different specification – were supplied to Lothian Buses in 2018 and 2019."

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Think what you will, but it's not tripe. Alexander Dennis have confirmed the order, and what they're intended for on their Facebook page this afternoon, the text from said post is copied below.

"We're going to build 60 new #Enviro400XLB double-deckers for Lothian Buses on the Volvo Bus UK & Ireland B8L chassis. The low-emission buses will have three axles and a length of 12.8m, around 1.3m longer than most of the Scottish operator’s two-axle double-deckers.

The majority of the new Enviro400XLB will be used to meet rising demand in the East Coast Buses and Lothian Country operations. The Airlink 100 service between Edinburgh airport and the city centre will also benefit from the fleet investment.

Dylan Dastey, Engineering Director at Lothian Buses, said: “Lothian is delighted to once again be working in partnership with Volvo and Alexander Dennis, building on our long‑standing relationships to deliver new double‑deck vehicles for our capital city.

“Since launching our Driving Towards Net Zero decarbonisation strategy in 2023, we have remained firmly focused on achieving our long‑term sustainability ambitions. At the same time, we continue to invest in renewing and modernising our fleet to ensure we provide safe, reliable and high‑quality services for our customers, both now and in the years ahead.

“This investment reflects our ongoing commitment to delivering the best possible customer experience, while supporting our wider ambition to fully decarbonise the fleet over the coming years.”

Our President & Managing Director Paul Davies said: “We’re delighted to be part of this Lothian Buses-led collaboration which will deliver a new fleet of double-deckers for the Scottish capital and neighbouring areas.

“We welcome Lothian’s support for British design, engineering and manufacturing and the impact that this project will have on jobs and supply chain.”

“We’re also delighted to be continuing our long-standing relationship with Volvo. Their B8L chassis offers a platform on which we have been able to design a version of our Enviro400XLB body that will allow Lothian to offer additional space to passengers, benefitting customers with accessibility needs and making bus travel more inclusive for everyone.

“We’re looking forward to partnering with Volvo to expand our range across the UK market and working closely with them on future opportunities.”

Domenico Bondi, Managing Director Volvo Bus UK & Ireland, said: “We are building on the cooperation that we have had back in 2018 which has been a successful project. We have a flexible business model working together with different bodybuilders and this is one example. The Volvo B8L is already a well-proven chassis and in service in many cities both in the UK and other countries. The new double deck will help to reduce road congestion and with it further improve air quality in Scotland’s capital city.”

The collaboration between Lothian Buses, Volvo and Alexander Dennis builds on successful earlier work between the three companies, under which 78 Alexander Dennis Enviro400XLB on Volvo B8L chassis – built to a different specification – were supplied to Lothian Buses in 2018 and 2019."

Seems to be suggestions these are being built in Scarborough. I thought these were being built at Falkirk. The whole intention on that part was political, Scottish built for Scottish use?

 

[37114]

Seems to be suggestions these are being built in Scarborough. I thought these were being built at Falkirk. The whole intention on that part was political, Scottish built for Scottish use?

ADL have said plan is to exit Falkirk and keep Larbert for chassis production and Scarborough for body building. If they had been integral ADL products then the chassis at least would be contributing to Scottish jobs.

 

[scosutsut]

Seems to be suggestions these are being built in Scarborough. I thought these were being built at Falkirk. The whole intention on that part was political, Scottish built for Scottish use?

The "British built" deffo confirms that for me, but as they are not party to any government funding, I don't think such an obligation was ever inferred.

In fact had they gone with Volvo's preference, they'd be MCV bodied, so they've done the UK industry a favour by speccing XLBs again.

 

[Lothianbus703]

44 has swapped allocations with the 35 today and for the foreseeable future.
Meaning 44 has 500's (2015 B5LH Gemini 3s fleetnumbers 551-570) and 35 has Longstones 600's B5TL E400MMC's.
This is to increase capacity on the 35.

 

[DespacitoPlayz]

I've linked an article from ADL below detailing on the XLB order for Lothiancountry, EastCoastbuses & Airlink. Details are also shared about the new electric buses to be ordered, which are now confirmed to have Enviro400EV bodywork on a BZL chassis.

Lothian Buses invests in capacity with order for 60 new Alexander Dennis Enviro400XLB tri-axles on Volvo B8L chassis | Alexander Dennis

Alexander Dennis, a subsidiary of NFI Group Inc., today announced that it is working with Volvo Buses to build 60 new tri-axle double-deckers for award-winning Scottish bus operator Lothian Buses. The operator has placed a firm order with Volvo Buses for 60 new low-emission double-deck buses...

www.alexander-dennis.com

"Lothian Buses also plans to order 40 zero-emission double-deckers from the two manufacturers, with Alexander Dennis placing its next-generation Enviro400EV body on the Volvo BZL electric chassis. Procurement of these vehicles is subject to confirmation of grant funding allocation to Lothian Buses from the Scottish Government’s third-round Scottish Zero-Emission Bus Challenge Fund (ScotZEB3)."

 

[ScotRail158725]

Seen a photo of 3 possibly 4 of the ex London 11 plate Geminis over in Dublin, any ideas what ones?

 

[Auld reekie]

44 has swapped allocations with the 35 today and for the foreseeable future.
Meaning 44 has 500's (2015 B5LH Gemini 3s fleetnumbers 551-570) and 35 has Longstones 600's B5TL E400MMC's.
This is to increase capacity on the 35.View attachment 205194View attachment 205195

I’m surprised at the exchange of allocation.

 

[CSB0241]

Remember that 12-15 are able to be used for Plane Parking unlike the other ones.

Just to ask, how is it that these 4 can do it yet the others can’t?

 

[LBObserver]

I'm not surprised as far as the 35 is concerned. I am a fairly regular user and it is often very busy on a now 15 minute daytime frequency, serving Heriot Watt, Edinburgh College and Napier at Sighthill, along with several student housing blocks between there and Edinburgh Uni buildings in the city centre.

It follows a fairly unique route especially east of Tollcross, offering connections that no other services do. The 44 has a 12 minute daytime frequency and a mostly shared route, except Waterloo Place, with the 4 (every 20 minutes) between Slateford and Meadowbank.

The 34 also covers Slateford to Ardmillan then the length of Princes Street as well as most of the 35 route to Semple Street except Longstone (34) / Chesser (35). The 34 runs every 20 minutes.

 

[Busman757]

The XLB’s for Lothian Country (and assuming the same for East Coast and Airlink) will have:

MMC Body work (shame as the EV bodywork looks smart)
Chassis built in Sweden (it was believed they were to be built in the UK) and some have arrived at Scarborough
Single door
Standard Mirrors
Hoped for a late December-February arrival

This will replace the Volvo B9 fleet.

 

[route101]

The XLB’s for Lothian Country (and assuming the same for East Coast and Airlink) will have:

MMC Body work (shame as the EV bodywork looks smart)
Chassis built in Sweden (it was believed they were to be built in the UK) and some have arrived at Scarborough
Single door
Standard Mirrors
Hoped for a late December-February arrival

This will replace the Volvo B9 fleet.

Do these look like the current XLBs then?

 

[Bus9120UK]

Do these look like the current XLBs then?

Potentially. They might not have glass staircases and they need an emergency door somewhere. The length is the most obvious visual difference.

This will replace the Volvo B9 fleet.

This should be enough for all 09 plates, 10 plates and ex-Londons to go. Depending on plans for service increases it could even be enough for some of the 11 plates to go.