Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[QSK19]

It is as that would be a brilliant solution, enabling more 10 car trains (as there is a lot of speculation that there are not enough 10 car daigrams to meet demand)

I seem to remember that, under original plans with respect to how many services would be 10-car, 31 out of 33 units would need to be in service. Suffice to say that several extra units would have been brilliant, but got to make do with the 33.

I’ve said before, though, that the 810s are a great train when everything works as it should. Let’s hope that, as each day goes by, fault-free running reaches the required level.

 

[NY SAARSS]

Not really a solution to trains breaking down, doubling the amount of coaches they have. If the doors wont open on a five car its double the chance they wont open on two five cars. the toilets dont work on five cars will they work on ten cars. Beeston cant fit ten cars on platform Long Eaton cant fit 10 cars on platform so should passengers at these stations commute to Nottingham or Derby to be able to get a reserved seat on a ten car when/if the reservations ever get used.

 

[Trainman40083]

I seem to remember that, under original plans with respect to how many services would be 10-car, 31 out of 33 units would need to be in service. Suffice to say that several extra units would have been brilliant, but got to make do with the 33.

I’ve said before, though, that the 810s are a great train when everything works as it should. Let’s hope that, as each day goes by, fault-free running reaches the required level.

But say there was a number of extra units, above the 33. Would there be enough space to stable them and move them around the depot? After all, said units are longer than the 222s. Etches Park doesn't seem to have much spare space

 

[dosxuk]

I seem to remember that the possibility of extra 810s as compensation was officially ruled out. A shame, but there would have been issues with contracts, financing, etc.

It's well known that EMR belatedly realised they hadn't specced enough stock when they bid based on replacing the 222's with the 810's, as evidenced by the plan to lease the 180's and retain them permanently*.

If I was Hitachi, needing to negotiate some sort of compensation, with a customer who knew they needed to buy more stock, the last thing I would agree is to provide that extra stock. Almost all other remedies can be written off, but writing off the sale of some additional units, along with all their associated income, for a customer who knows they need them already, is just bad business sense.

*Subsequently reversed when the franchise reverted to DFT control as part of the COVID traffic reduction remediations.

 

[QSK19]

It's well known that EMR belatedly realised they hadn't specced enough stock when they bid based on replacing the 222's with the 810's, as evidenced by the plan to lease the 180's and retain them permanently*.

If I was Hitachi, needing to negotiate some sort of compensation, with a customer who knew they needed to buy more stock, the last thing I would agree is to provide that extra stock. Almost all other remedies can be written off, but writing off the sale of some additional units, along with all their associated income, for a customer who knows they need them already, is just bad business sense.

*Subsequently reversed when the franchise reverted to DFT control as part of the COVID traffic reduction remediations.

Hindsight can be a right you-know-what, can’t it!

I agree though, not much sense in Hitachi providing the extra stock FOC. Hitachi have effectively got EMR over a barrel and EMR blew the chance to specify a sufficient number of units when they had the chance.

 

[apinnard]

I seem to remember that, under original plans with respect to how many services would be 10-car, 31 out of 33 units would need to be in service. Suffice to say that several extra units would have been brilliant, but got to make do with the 33.

I’ve said before, though, that the 810s are a great train when everything works as it should. Let’s hope that, as each day goes by, fault-free running reaches the required level.

With a clear run on electric they can arrive northbound from London into Kettering 6 early.

 

[43096]

If I was Hitachi, needing to negotiate some sort of compensation, with a customer who knew they needed to buy more stock, the last thing I would agree is to provide that extra stock. Almost all other remedies can be written off, but writing off the sale of some additional units, along with all their associated income, for a customer who knows they need them already, is just bad business sense.

But from a business perspective Hitachi would have been far better off providing additional units rather than a straight cash penalty payment. Quite apart from the initial cash benefit, those free units would need maintenance and spares throughout their lives and that would have been additional revenue for Hitachi.

 

[38Cto15E]

Thanks apinnard, what is the fastest possible time with a clear run to Leicester?

 

[Merle Haggard]

With a clear run on electric they can arrive northbound from London into Kettering 6 early.

For this to be achieved the preceding down Sheffield would also be running early; it's booked to pass Kettering 4 1/2 or 5 1/2 minutes before the Nottingham stops there. In turn, the Corby preceding that would have to leave Wellingborough punctually and make the most of the speed through the Down Fast to Slow crossover at Wellingborough North Junction to avoid knocking the early-running Sheffield.
I suggest early running is more a reflection of no checks at all to early running Down EMR services preceding the Nottingham rather than traction performance. I have experienced 222s arriving at Kettering 2 -3 minutes early on the Down when boarding them there.

 

[Railperf]

Thanks apinnard, what is the fastest possible time with a clear run to Leicester?

The fastest St Pancras to Leicester time logged so far aboard a Class 810 was 61 minutes 30 seconds.
But a Class 222 run back in 2014 achieved a time of just under one hour.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The fastest St Pancras to Leicester time logged so far aboard a Class 810 was 61 minutes 30 seconds.
But a Class 222 run back in 2014 achieved a time of just under one hour.

I travelled a few times on the afternoon Up Sheffield that was operated by one of the short, ex Grand Central, HST sets. I remember on one journey in particular the arrival at St Pancras was impressively early. The ex GC sets were also used to Sheffield occasionally at weekends. Do you have any records of fast times by them between Leicester and St Pancras?

 

[Railperf]

I travelled a few times on the afternoon Up Sheffield that was operated by one of the short, ex Grand Central, HST sets. I remember on one journey in particular the arrival at St Pancras was impressively early. The ex GC sets were also used to Sheffield occasionally at weekends. Do you have any records of fast times by them between Leicester and St Pancras?

Fastest time in the RPS archive for an up journey is 61 min 18 seconds for a class 222. The fastest logged HST time is 64 mins 11 seconds for a 2+8 HST.
I used to catch a 2+6 ex GC set on a service to Nottingham in the morning but it stopped at Luton Airport, Bedford and all stations northbound. I had some fast runs on those sets. Strangely the EMR sets that were reduced from 8 to 6 intermediate coaches did not seem to match the ex-GC sets acceleration
I suspect the newer MTU engine was a better performing setup.

On paper the 810's better electric acceleration could eventually surpass the fastest 222 time in the down direction, but it requires a delayed departure from St Pancras to avoid catching the Corby service and driving to the line speed limits.

As there seems to be pathing time to allow for the Corby service, it seems that most drivers don't push it too hard, expecting caution signals after Sharnbrook. And then there is always the question of whether you will get a clear run through Wigston into Leicester.

 

[DannyMich2018]

Looking at RTT only 4 in passenger use today (010, 013, 015 and 018), 2 more look to be testing/training.
Additionally the Merchant Park to Etches Park hasn't ran either yet.

 

[BRcrosslane]

EMR 810 units seem to have a poor record, that was the case last Tuesday at Derby, toilet and door issues.

 

[baz962]

With a clear run on electric they can arrive northbound from London into Kettering 6 early.

On some diagrams maybe , but not all .

 

[GilfachFargoed]

Looking at RTT only 4 in passenger use today (010, 013, 015 and 018), 2 more look to be testing/training.
Additionally the Merchant Park to Etches Park hasn't ran either yet.

019 worked the 05:48 Leicester - Sheffield and appears to have failed at Derby with 'Doors'. 07:34 Sheffield - St Pancras cancelled as a result.

 

[Trainman40083]

810014 seems to be having door issues today. Train from St Pancras to Sheffield turned at Chesterfield enabling a right time departure back to London. Friend on it reports door issue in coach B

 

[1D54]

Unidentified unit has a problem so the 05:49 NOT - STP has been cancelled.

 

[Amos390]

Unidentified unit has a problem so the 05:49 NOT - STP has been cancelled.

Would’ve been 810011

 

[InTheEastMids]

Would’ve been 810011

That this specific unit failed again this morning is - on its own - not that concerning.
However, there are 10 units passed for passenger service; at the time of writing 4 are earning money and this one is broken.

So, why EMR didn't simply stand up one of the other 5 units that are at Etches Park and passed for passenger service?
It the answer is "because none of them are fit for service either", then that is quite concerning.

It does look as though there's quite a lot of juggling going on to make sure all the services run from this point.
Happily from customers' perspective, it looks like they will more-or-less manage it unless something else goes wrong.

 

[WesternLancer]

That this specific unit failed again this morning is - on its own - not that concerning.
However, there are 10 units passed for passenger service; at the time of writing 4 are earning money and this one is broken.

So, why EMR didn't simply stand up one of the other 5 units that are at Etches Park and passed for passenger service?
It the answer is "because none of them are fit for service either", then that is quite concerning.

It does look as though there's quite a lot of juggling going on to make sure all the services run from this point.
Happily from customers' perspective, it looks like they will more-or-less manage it unless something else goes wrong.

I'd be interested in views of people with an industry background in terms of how long it is reasonable to wait for new units to be able to perform reliably in passenger service.
The first 810s started running in passenger service in December 2025 - so for some of them we are 6 months + in, but still reliability problems

I know some other new trains designers have had worse problems, but what as a general rule does the industry regard as 'acceptable'

It occurs to me that is this had been under BR we'd never have heard the last of it from the general media....(see APT introduction for example) - which I am starting to think could well become a media narrative after GBR becomes more widely perceived as being 'in charge'.

"wrong type of doors" narrative.....?

The east midlands / S Yorks MPs / Mayors who represent and serve the people who need these new trains are pretty silent on the matter too, or so it seems to me - and many of them must actually use them as I suspect the EMR intercity service is the one route they are probably do use on a regular basis.

 

[3RDGEN]

I'd be interested in views of people with an industry background in terms of how long it is reasonable to wait for new units to be able to perform reliably in passenger service.
The first 810s started running in passenger service in December 2025 - so for some of them we are 6 months + in, but still reliability problems

I know some other new trains designers have had worse problems, but what as a general rule does the industry regard as 'acceptable'

It occurs to me that is this had been under BR we'd never have heard the last of it from the general media....(see APT introduction for example) - which I am starting to think could well become a media narrative after GBR becomes more widely perceived as being 'in charge'.

"wrong type of doors" narrative.....?

The east midlands / S Yorks MPs / Mayors who represent and serve the people who need these new trains are pretty silent on the matter too, or so it seems to me - and many of them must actually use them as I suspect the EMR intercity service is the one route they are probably do use on a regular basis.

Roger Ford publishes a new train reliability data table each month in Modern Railways magazine and when a fleet achieves 15,000 miles per failure they are "promoted" from the table. Last month the 730/0 achieved that "promotion" at 16,000 miles per failure, looking back the 730/0 fleet was first recorded in March 2024 so it's taken that fleet approx two years to achieve the 15,000 miles per failure figure.

The 810's are at 2,200 on a moving annual average figure so far.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Roger Ford publishes a new train reliability data table each month in Modern Railways magazine and when a fleet achieves 15,000 miles per failure they are "promoted" from the table. Last month the 730/0 achieved that "promotion" at 16,000 miles per failure, looking back the 730/0 fleet was first recorded in March 2024 so it's taken that fleet approx two years to achieve the 15,000 miles per failure figure.

The 810's are at 2,200 on a moving annual average figure so far.

If a 810 can't be persuaded to leave Etches Park and take up a working - as seems to be quite common - I wonder if this counts as 0 miles per failure or is just ignored.

 

[3RDGEN]

If a 810 can't be persuaded to leave Etches Park and take up a working - as seems to be quite common - I wonder if this counts as 0 miles per failure or is just ignored.

If it's a train fault then it would go against the fleet and be one on the total for the period. They need to get more in service and get the mileage run up to build service experience and help identify one off issues from build/maintenance and those endemic to the design. Given the experience with the the 80x fleets you would expect Hitachi to get the reliability sorted.

 

[43096]

Given the experience with the the 80x fleets you would expect Hitachi to get the reliability sorted.

Given that availability of the 80x fleets isn't great for a modern train and never has been, I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[WesternLancer]

Roger Ford publishes a new train reliability data table each month in Modern Railways magazine and when a fleet achieves 15,000 miles per failure they are "promoted" from the table. Last month the 730/0 achieved that "promotion" at 16,000 miles per failure, looking back the 730/0 fleet was first recorded in March 2024 so it's taken that fleet approx two years to achieve the 15,000 miles per failure figure.

The 810's are at 2,200 on a moving annual average figure so far.

thanks. v informative and appreciated.

 

[DannyMich2018]

Unidentified unit has a problem so the 05:49 NOT - STP has been cancelled.

010 failed at Kettering according to RTT doors problem around 21.30 Presumably empty to Etches Park. Another one possibly failed earlier looking according RTT- 018, 05.56 Sheffield-St Pancras or was swapped as that's last update for that unit.

 

[1D54]

05:56 Sheffield - St Pancras is cancelled due to a fault with 011.

 

[jontyasaurus]

As is 1C17 07:00 Sheffield - St Pancras, although I don't have a unit number for that. Going to be a fun trip down this morning on the following 810016 at 07:34, if it makes it...

 

[Amos390]

As is 1C17 07:00 Sheffield - St Pancras, although I don't have a unit number for that. Going to be a fun trip down this morning on the following 810016 at 07:34, if it makes it...

Surprise surprise would’ve been 011…