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Handling steam loco pressure valve noise

brad465

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While watching The Royal Duchy railtour pass through Taunton this evening, steam loco Eddystone's pressure valve went off, which of course is very noisy, and seems to be a common thing at Taunton as the double-headed Mayflower railtour last year had both locos doing it. But for all the bother the noise is for those watching from the side, how do the crew on the footplate handle it, given there's nowhere for them to go?
 
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DarloRich

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While watching The Royal Duchy railtour pass through Taunton this evening, steam loco Eddystone's pressure valve went off, which of course is very noisy, and seems to be a common thing at Taunton as the double-headed Mayflower railtour last year had both locos doing it. But for all the bother the noise is for those watching from the side, how do the crew on the footplate handle it, given there's nowhere for them to go?
stick thier fingers in thier ears? Accept the long term hearing loss?

A perhaps silly question: is it as loud on the inside as the outside?
 

Forty29

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I think there was a thread recently about how noise particularly steam engine's affected mainly children and how they react. Sorry can't find it at the moment perhaps someone else can?
 

martin butler

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That noise is the safety valves, releasing steam from the boiler and this happens one the steam pressure in the boiler gets above a set limit, the red line as its called.

How can you stop it?, you can't, except by good boiler management by knowing the road, and the engine, by careful and well-timed firing, by use of the injectors to maintain water levels,

It's not easy, you need steam to haul an heavy train up a gradient, then once your over the top, you are coasting with little need for steam, but you have a boiler full of hot steam, its a very fine balancing act, to ensure you have enough steam, without wasting it,

Ideally you run with enough water space that you can put an injector on when stationary, to drop the pressure so it sits just under the red line, On the heritage line, I used to fire on, lifting the safeties at a station was frowned upon.
 

ac6000cw

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I'm guessing that the two trains mentioned in the OP were heading south from Taunton, so having to climb Wellington Bank soon after leaving there and hence wanting maximum boiler pressure available for the climb?

lifting the safeties at a station was frowned upon.
AFAIK that was also the case back when steam was mainstream power (and because blowing off steam wastes fuel - money - and firing effort).
 

martin butler

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I'm guessing that the two trains mentioned in the OP were heading south from Taunton, so having to climb Wellington Bank soon after leaving there and hence wanting maximum boiler pressure available for the climb?


AFAIK that was also the case back when steam was mainstream power (and because blowing off steam wastes fuel - money - and firing effort).
As regards the noise, and how crews cope with it, unless a spring had weakened, the valve would not normally lift for long, so most crews accepted it as part of the job, some are louder than others, depending where on the boiler the safety valves are, On an A4 they're closer to the cab, and as a result quite loud.
 

Teaboy1

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There is no way of controlling that noise once the valve lifts. Only when the pressure drops below the Set Point will the valve close and the noise stop.

The South African Class25 Condensers actually had a vent line that directed the Safety Valve emitted steam into the Condensing Line that lead to the Tender Condenser thereby saving precious steam [water] to be recovered and was fed back into boiler. It did make itself known to crew when the Safety lifted but was a muted dignified rumble and not an ear-piercing shriek.

However, here in Blighty today, put fingers into ears.
 

AndrewE

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There is no way of controlling that noise once the valve lifts. Only when the pressure drops below the Set Point will the valve close and the noise stop.
The "Pop" safety valves are the most extreme in my experience, other types give you a bit of warning that they are lifting, but pop valves just explode at full pressure. I think they are designed to do that so that they a) don't waste steam by lifting early and b) shut suddenly and firmly when the pressure has dropped a bit.

Re what can be done about it when you stop at a station? a) put on the injector(s) which both use steam and lower the boiler water temperature, b) open the firebox door to let cool air in over the fire and c) if neither of these works, just regret the waste of coal and wait for the complaints! Of course if you are getting a boiler filled and the fire ready to tackle an ascent off the platform end and your departure is delayed then there is nothing you can do about it!

(One of my former colleagues had started as a fireman at Northwich... He told me that if you let the safety valves lift at stations like Plumley you were disciplined!)
 

John Luxton

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In the last few years there has been a noticeable increase in the number of children and young adults to be seen at heritage railway with ear defenders! Now I recall my first experience of a safty valve lifting at Lime Street Station around 1963/4. My grandmother has been away in Africa visiting my aunt for three months the day she was returning home my mother took me down to to meet her coming off the Euston train in pre electrificatin days and this grimy loco possibly a Black 5 lifted its safety valves. I didn't like it the first time but then became used to it as I became more interested in railways. Given that many children and youngsters appear to listen to pop music at very high volumes I do wonder why they need ear defenders for steam locos! Perhaps they are getting soft? :D
 

LowLevel

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In the last few years there has been a noticeable increase in the number of children and young adults to be seen at heritage railway with ear defenders! Now I recall my first experience of a safty valve lifting at Lime Street Station around 1963/4. My grandmother has been away in Africa visiting my aunt for three months the day she was returning home my mother took me down to to meet her coming off the Euston train in pre electrificatin days and this grimy loco possibly a Black 5 lifted its safety valves. I didn't like it the first time but then became used to it as I became more interested in railways. Given that many children and youngsters appear to listen to pop music at very high volumes I do wonder why they need ear defenders for steam locos! Perhaps they are getting soft? :D
I suspect the link between railway enthusiasm and autism and common methods of mitigating the effect loud or sudden noise can have on such people in the modern era is the answer.
 

david_g

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, you The "Pop" safety valves are the most extreme in my experience, other types give you a bit of warning that they are lifting, but pop valves just explode at full pressure. I think they are designed to do that so that they a) don't waste steam by lifting early and b) shut suddenly and firmly when the pressure has dropped a bit.

Re what can be done about it when you stop at a station? a) put on the injector(s) which both use steam and lower the boiler water temperature, b) open the firebox door to let cool air in over the fire and c) if neither of these works, just regret the waste of coal and wait for the complaints! Of course if you are getting a boiler filled and the fire ready to tackle an ascent off the platform end and your departure is delayed then there is nothing you can do about it!

(One of my former colleagues had started as a fireman at Northwich... He told me that if you let the safety valves lift at stations like Plumley you were disciplined!)

I'm a fireman on the Welshpool & Llanfair.

Been there and have several t-shirts to prove it. Sitting at Raven Square with a Beyer Peacock (our no. 1 & 2), departure time approaching; you've got two miles of climbing off the platform end with over half of it at 1 in 29; fire nice and hot and you can get some more out of it by lifting the dampers; pressure heading towards the red line; 3/4 of a glass in the boiler, you don't want any more because when the train hits the 1 in 29 all that water is going to run back and if the valves lift then you have a big problem on your hands as it can pull water through the safety valves ... and then a car pulls into the car park, four people hurrying towards the booking office. Result: whoosh! All that careful preparation gone but better it happens on the platform than on the hill.
 

brad465

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I'm guessing that the two trains mentioned in the OP were heading south from Taunton, so having to climb Wellington Bank soon after leaving there and hence wanting maximum boiler pressure available for the climb?
It was actually heading northbound. However, correct me if I'm wrong, having descended the bank and coasted into Taunton, is it possible that the engines didn't really need to fire up so the pressure just built up from lack of steam required for tractive effort? I also wonder if the presence of a diesel pushing from the back increases pressure valve activation, given it's providing extra power, so less steam is required to achieve the same speeds compared to the diesel not being present?
 

martin butler

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It was actually heading northbound. However, correct me if I'm wrong, having descended the bank and coasted into Taunton, is it possible that the engines didn't really need to fire up so the pressure just built up from lack of steam required for tractive effort? I also wonder if the presence of a diesel pushing from the back increases pressure valve activation, given it's providing extra power, so less steam is required to achieve the same speeds compared to the diesel not being present?
If they coasted into Taunton, the deisel would only be idling as there would be no need to assist, More than not, the valve would have lifted because the crew would have needed the steam to climb the bank, and once you shut the regulator it's not needed but the pressure is still rising, so the safety's lift, until the pressure drops back.
 

Rescars

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The "Pop" safety valves are the most extreme in my experience, other types give you a bit of warning that they are lifting, but pop valves just explode at full pressure. I think they are designed to do that so that they a) don't waste steam by lifting early and b) shut suddenly and firmly when the pressure has dropped a bit.

Re what can be done about it when you stop at a station? a) put on the injector(s) which both use steam and lower the boiler water temperature, b) open the firebox door to let cool air in over the fire and c) if neither of these works, just regret the waste of coal and wait for the complaints! Of course if you are getting a boiler filled and the fire ready to tackle an ascent off the platform end and your departure is delayed then there is nothing you can do about it!

(One of my former colleagues had started as a fireman at Northwich... He told me that if you let the safety valves lift at stations like Plumley you were disciplined!)
If anyone happens to be interested, the BTC Handbook for Steam Locomotive Enginemen states that "Blowing off can be avoided by careful management of the fire and injectors. On a modern 4-6-0 locomotive with a tractive effort in the neighbourhood of 26,000 lb, there is a loss of pressure and wastage of approximately 10 gallons of water for every minute the safety valves are open." Interestingly no corresponding figure for coal wastage is given. A BR Standard 5-MT would appear to have delivered a tractive effort of 26,120 lb, so we can guess which "modern 4-6-0" the authors had in mind.
 

ac6000cw

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If anyone happens to be interested, the BTC Handbook for Steam Locomotive Enginemen states that "Blowing off can be avoided by careful management of the fire and injectors. On a modern 4-6-0 locomotive with a tractive effort in the neighbourhood of 26,000 lb, there is a loss of pressure and wastage of approximately 10 gallons of water for every minute the safety valves are open." Interestingly no corresponding figure for coal wastage is given. A BR Standard 5-MT would appear to have delivered a tractive effort of 26,120 lb, so we can guess which "modern 4-6-0" the authors had in mind.
I guess you could work out how much energy is needed to raise 10 gallons of water to around 200C (the boiling point at 225 psi steam pressure), allowing for the heat transfer efficiency (from coal to water) of a typical loco boiler (which a quick bit of Googling suggests is around 60-70%), then translate that into weight of coal of average calorific value?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Edit: Using an average value for the calorific value of bituminous coal (27,000 kJ/kg), a rough calculation suggests it would take around 7kg of coal to heat 10 gallons of water from 40C to 200C.
 
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Rescars

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I guess you could work out how much energy is needed to raise 10 gallons of water to around 200C (the boiling point at 225 psi steam pressure), allowing for the heat transfer efficiency (from coal to water) of a typical loco boiler (which a quick bit of Googling suggests is around 60-70%), then translate that into weight of coal of average calorific value?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Edit: Using an average value for the calorific value of bituminous coal (27,000 kJ/kg), a rough calculation suggests it would take around 7kg of coal to heat 10 gallons of water from 40C to 200C.
Then by my calculation, this roughly translates into the wastage of 1 cwt of coal for every 7 minutes the valves are open. Others will know how many fireman's shovelfuls there are to the cwt or kg.
 

AndrewE

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I guess you could work out how much energy is needed to raise 10 gallons of water to around 200C (the boiling point at 225 psi steam pressure), allowing for the heat transfer efficiency (from coal to water) of a typical loco boiler (which a quick bit of Googling suggests is around 60-70%), then translate that into weight of coal of average calorific value?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Edit: Using an average value for the calorific value of bituminous coal (27,000 kJ/kg), a rough calculation suggests it would take around 7kg of coal to heat 10 gallons of water from 40C to 200C.
but what about the latent heat needed to evaporate the 10 gall of water water into steam? Shouldn't that be in there somewhere too?
 

edwin_m

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but what about the latent heat needed to evaporate the 10 gall of water water into steam? Shouldn't that be in there somewhere too?
Not necessarily. At a typical boiler pressure of 200psi the boiling point of water is 200C. I think the reason it comes off as steam is because the pressure reduces as it is taken out of the boiler, and the latent heat must be supplied by reducing its temperature accordingly. Not too sure about this though - it's several decades since I did any thermodynamics and most of it passed me by even then...
 

ac6000cw

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but what about the latent heat needed to evaporate the 10 gall of water water into steam? Shouldn't that be in there somewhere too?
Thermodynamics isn't my strong suit either, but if we assume the latent heat of vaporization should be included (which is about 1940 kJ/kg at 200C => 87000 kJ for 10 gal/45kg of water), I think that makes it about 12kg of coal.
 

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