New Main Line for Cornwall

[FGWHST43009]

Okehampton to Waterloo is about 200 miles, so you'd be looking at more than 100mph average speed to get anywhere near 2.5 hours to Truro. Which I believe would be faster than non-stop KX - York trains on the ECML manage.

Not that any more holes need to be picked in the idea.

Nuclear option: Bring on HS4 from London to Plymouth via Reading, Southampton, Bournemouth and Exeter.

In the meantime, upgrades from Exeter to Penzance should help lower the journey time.

 

[Zomboid]

You'd probably be up to about HS10 before a line to Devon is near the top of the list... Cornwalls best chance of faster journeys to London are improvements in line speed through Devon.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Ju

’ve always wondered what would have happened had the UK not invented railways but the Swiss or Austrian’s did,there’s a good chance that the WCML north of Lancaster would be straighter with numerous long tunnels and west of Exeter the line could have gone in a straight line again with numerous tunnels,the line may have followed the route of the A38,don’t get me started on the A38 with its numerous delays,accidents and fatalities

This doesn't make much sense: have you seen the horseshoe curves and even spirals on routes like the Gotthard or Semmering? Tunnels were only used when there was really no alternative. The long base tunnels of today are a much more recent development post-dating the Channel Tunnel.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I like a crayon sandwich as much as anyone, but this is hilarious...

Me too! Yes, not going to happen even in my children’s lifetime.

 

[MarkyT]

This doesn't make much sense: have you seen the horseshoe curves and even spirals on routes like the Gotthard or Semmering? Tunnels were only used when there was really no alternative. The long base tunnels of today are a much more recent development post-dating the Channel Tunnel.

The Simplon was an early base tunnel, not exceeding ~700m above sea level, and avoiding the steep tortuous approach ramps of some other transalpine routes.

 

[Zomboid]

Tunnels weren't anything new when the northern WCML was built, they were just expensive and not required to meet the specification that the route was built to at the time. If it were built today it would be a lot flatter and straighter to provide a solid 125+ line speed with gradients that freight could easily handle.

As would the GWR Exeter to Penzance line. Though I think there a better chance of a Carlisle to Carstairs HSL than one into Cornwall that avoids Plymouth.

 

[PMN1]

Did any of the pre WW2 GWR plans for avoiding Dawlish ever get looked at again?

 

[HSTEd]

Tunnels are much cheaper compared to surface routes than they have been in the past.

But I can't see this being a better way to spend money on a new railway in the south west than a Plymouth-Exeter base tunnel that would be used day in, day out, by far more trains than a railway through the comparative wilderness north of Dartmoor.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The Simplon was an early base tunnel, not exceeding ~700m above sea level, and avoiding the steep tortuous approach ramps of some other transalpine routes.

Simplon summit is 705m. Highest summit on GB network is Druimuachdar (Highland Mainline) at a mere 452m, not much of a comparison. While @HSTEd is correct to say that these days the cost of a tunnelled route is not significantly more than one on the surface (though stations are another matter!) in reality this country is nowhere near mountainous enough for comparisons with Alpine routes to have any value. I suspect those who attempt to do so haven't actually travelled on Alpine railways.

 

[The Ham]

You'd probably be up to about HS10 before a line to Devon is near the top of the list... Cornwalls best chance of faster journeys to London are improvements in line speed through Devon.

It does depend on how far West the line is going, a HS Wales and West line getting services to (say) Salisbury before heading towards the Severn could get you decent way towards Exeter at high speeds.

There could even be justification for the line to reach Yeovil (with trains to Weymouth going that way) before the main thrust headed towards the Severn and stub of new line going towards Exeter.

But yes, certainly before there's actual HS track in any of Devon.

Did any of the pre WW2 GWR plans for avoiding Dawlish ever get looked at again?

There was the Network Rail report which looked at options to avoid Dawlish ( if you search the forum for Dawlish Avoiding Line or DAL you'll find much discussion on the report)

The issue the options for the DAL have is that you're building a pair of tracks which could easily have 12tph but only able to GWR express services and the XC services due to other constraints.

This provides you with a hard limit in the possible benefits - again the how do you increase service frequency especially to/from London.

 

[Zomboid]

does depend on how far West the line is going, a HS Wales and West line getting services to (say) Salisbury before heading towards the Severn could get you decent way towards Exeter at high speeds.

There could even be justification for the line to reach Yeovil (with trains to Weymouth going that way) before the main thrust headed towards the Severn and stub of new line going towards Exeter.

But yes, certainly before there's actual HS track in any of Devon

I don't see high speed rail getting any closer than Bristol, and I'll not sure that could ever really be justified.

 

[The Ham]

I don't see high speed rail getting any closer than Bristol, and I'll not sure that could ever really be justified.

Indeed, and if I wasn't clear in my post, that was what I was taking about (i.e. from London to, maybe, Somerset and potentially a new route to get to the other side of the Severn - but only just)

 

[AndrewE]

Simplon summit is 705m. Highest summit on GB network is Druimuachdar (Highland Mainline) at a mere 452m, not much of a comparison. While @HSTEd is correct to say that these days the cost of a tunnelled route is not significantly more than one on the surface (though stations are another matter!) in reality this country is nowhere near mountainous enough for comparisons with Alpine routes to have any value. I suspect those who attempt to do so haven't actually travelled on Alpine railways.

summit altitude is pretty well irrelevant. Most of (occupied) Switzerland is probably above the height of Druimuachdar to start with!

 

[35B]

If Maguire wants to help his Cornish constituency, then focusing on asking for linespeed improvements between Plymouth and Exeter would be a far better use of his time, and help get his constituents to London quicker. He could also campaign for better seating on the 800 fleet. His pie in the sky proposal would be a disaster for the regions biggest city (Plymouth), and thankfully I don't think anyone whatsoever thinks it has even the smallest chance of happening.

I think he'd do better focusing on road improvements that might allow his constituents to get around the constituency in reasonable time than a mega scheme like this. It would (possibly) be good for 2 of the major towns there (Bodmin & Launceston), but much less so for most of the rest of the constituency - indeed, the proposed Bodmin station would probably serve neighbouring constituencies better than his own given the roads in the area.

 

[HSTEd]

Well a high speed line all the way to Penzance, with trains running fast to Exeter and then stopping five or six times in Devon and Cornwall could probably manage 2 hours London-Penzance.

At that point I wonder if holiday homes would just convert into homes for hybrid working, and you'd probably end up with enormous seasonal traffic levels.

Still not strictly worth it from a cold blooded economic sense, but interesting to think about.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

summit altitude is pretty well irrelevant. Most of (occupied) Switzerland is probably above the height of Druimuachdar to start with!

To avoid going too far OT I will simply point out that this statement is factually incorrect. Those who are interested will be able to do their own rersearch.

 

[Farnborough]

I note nobody has quoted the Proposal:

A railway leaving Okehampton, keeping to the north of the A30, passing through a tunnel under Sourton Down, crossing the A30 and the Tamar on a viaduct before entering a new Launceston station near Pennygillam. The line would then continue along the A30 corridor, across Bodmin Moor using tunnels where needed, and serve a new interchange-style Bodmin station to the east of the town. From there it would rejoin the Cornish main line. In addition, the existing line from Exeter to Okehampton would be upgraded, improving services in East Devon.

So...

• Tunnels under Sourton Down
• Viaduct over the Tamar
• Across Bodmin Moor (using tunnels "where needed")

I admire the optimism in the proposal...

 

[Trelill Tunnel]

Okehampton to Waterloo is about 200 miles, so you'd be looking at more than 100mph average speed to get anywhere near 2.5 hours to Truro. Which I believe would be faster than non-stop KX - York trains on the ECML manage.

Not that any more holes need to be picked in the idea.

Better surely to spend taxpayer money on reviving Tavistock to Bere Alston / Plymouth line and also extending line to Kelly Bray, in order to relieve the increasing commuter / commercial traffic from West Devon and East Cornwall into Plymouth ?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Cornwall Council has agreed to 'look into' this scheme further - there is a report on the BBC website today. I haven't worked out how to do a link from a mobile yet, if someone could assist?

One further piece of information is that 'Meldon Viaduct would not be used' and the line would follow the A30 to Launceston. The A30 has a steep twisting descent from Sourton into the Thrushell Valley - which is notorious for towing caravans! - quite how a railway would achieve this is all a mystery.

 

[martin butler]

Cornwall Council has agreed to 'look into' this scheme further - there is a report on the BBC website today. I haven't worked out how to do a link from a mobile yet, if someone could assist?

One further piece of information is that 'Meldon Viaduct would not be used' and the line would follow the A30 to Launceston. The A30 has a steep twisting descent from Sourton into the Thrushell Valley - which is notorious for towing caravans! - quite how a railway would achieve this is all a mystery.

There as so many issues to do with this idea, that it most likely won't ever get built, or if it does, it won't be anything like what's planned,
for example, is there room to build a whole new route next to the A30 ?

I think the only realist way would be to reopen the closed lines, that ran via Barnstable and Bude

 

[Gloster]

It is just a typical example of the modern railway: a constant stream of money being poured into the pockets of consultants and advisors who produce studies for projects that can never be built because the money has been spent on studies. The few reasonable projects get lost amongst all the impracticable ideas and take years to be built as they have to wait until they win the lucky ticket. But a few politicians get publicity and consultants get money, so that’s all right then. The gravy train rolls on.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Cornwall Council has agreed to 'look into' this scheme further - there is a report on the BBC website today. I haven't worked out how to do a link from a mobile yet, if someone could assist?

Devon to Cornwall railway plan gets feasibility study funding

Cornwall Council is funding research into a new rail link connecting Launceston to Okehampton.

www.bbc.co.uk

Repeats some dubious claims.

Connect North Cornwall said creating a new electrified line through the town could enable journey times between London and Truro to be cut to two-and-half hours.

 

[zwk500]

It is just a typical example of the modern railway: a constant stream of money being poured into the pockets of consultants and advisors who produce studies for projects that can never be built because the money has been spent on studies. The few reasonable projects get lost amongst all the impracticable ideas and take years to be built as they have to wait until they win the lucky ticket. But a few politicians get publicity and consultants get money, so that’s all right then. The gravy train rolls on.

It should be pointed out that it is not consultant's fault that politicians won't give up on their hobby horses.

Would you expect the consultants to refuse to bid for the work on the basis of the scheme being unviable, before they even look at it?

 

[Gloster]

It should be pointed out that it is not consultant's fault that politicians won't give up on their hobby horses.

Would you expect the consultants to refuse to bid for the work on the basis of the scheme being unviable, before they even look at it?

No, but it seems that consultants are putting up schemes to politicians, who will get the finds which then find their way back to the consultants: a nice circular arrangement. Yes, of course the money doesn’t necessarily get back to the same consultants who started a particular project, but some you win, some you lose. The consultants get work and the politicians get deniable publicity, but the railway industry spends money to no advantage to itself. And, yes, I do realise that not all consultants are tarred with the same brush.

 

[The Planner]

No, but it seems that consultants are putting up schemes to politicians, who will get the finds which then find their way back to the consultants: a nice circular arrangement. Yes, of course the money doesn’t necessarily get back to the same consultants who started a particular project, but some you win, some you lose. The consultants get work and the politicians get deniable publicity, but the railway industry spends money to no advantage to itself. And, yes, I do realise that not all consultants are tarred with the same brush.

Thats not how it works. Consultants are very rarely going to spend their own cash and resource on a whim with nothing at the end of it, you ask consultants to do work for you as you cannot do it yourself.

 

[MattRat]

Being optimistic here, what if it's a plan designed to look unreasonable, so they can show a 'more reasonable' alternative that was actually the thing they wanted in the first place?

 

[The Ham]

Being optimistic here, what if it's a plan designed to look unreasonable, so they can show a 'more reasonable' alternative that was actually the thing they wanted in the first place?

Maybe, but some of the claims are beyond believable and so such a theory is unlikely.

In that you'd have to have something which people don't think is an April Fools joke, and if you're thinking far enough ahead to be planning for "well here's what we always wanted" you'd ensure that the "here's the over the top option" was optimistic without being a work of fantasy.

 

[Falcon1200]

It is just a typical example of the modern railway

Surely more a typical example of politicians, modern or otherwise? Show how much you care, and deserve to be (re)elected, by proposing a wondrous scheme to benefit your constituents/voters, despite knowing how ludicrous and unaffordable it is, and that it will never, ever get built. Of which this plan is a shining example.

 

[fandroid]

I'm amazed at how many people have taken this proposal at all seriously. But the call of crayons is irresistable for many, I guess.

If routes through bigger towns, with tracks already in place (Ivanhoe line) can't get support then how likely is a greenfield new line connecting a tiny town to the network?

Somewhere I read that it's the brainchild of an ex-BR HQ person. Politicians can be convinced of anything if the proposer has even just a veneer of expertise.

 

[InTheEastMids]

No, but it seems that consultants are putting up schemes to politicians, who will get the finds which then find their way back to the consultants: a nice circular arrangement.

It's very easy for politicians to get their ear bent by small but vocal interests promoting a "reverse Beeching" idea. The standard feasibility study is a cheap way of helping politicians that are constantly grasping around for things that show they are doing something.

You can see that they are trying to repeat what happened with EWR, which was also at crayon maturity when the EWR Consortium formed like this back in the 1990s. But there are two big differences.
1. Even in 1995, EWR was getting support from multiple local authorities
2. There has been sustained economic growth that justifies a greenfield railway, and which EWR helps unlock more of

Consultants are very rarely never going to spend their own cash and resource on a whim with nothing at the end of it

Fixed
A bit of more general public service announcement a consultant's view of this kind of opportunity.
1. It says a lot that there is no obvious promoter - local/combined authorities usually have a pretty good grasp of their transport priorities
2. If there's no buyer and no contract then it's business development; I might throw together a few slides, but this is just crayoning on a corporate template, I can put any old guff in because there's no contract
3. If a council decide to promote it and buy a feasibility study, public procurement rules should weed out abnormally low tenders, so I can't just do the work for nothing
4. If there is a contract, I still have to get it through internal governance that will include a commercial assessment of the study
5. If I want to go in at low, zero or even negative profit on the contract, I need to convince the business there's even more significant work in the future

All that without thinking about the scheme concept and the obvious issues that others have pointed out.