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West Yorkshire bus franchising

TheGrandWazoo

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Before deregulation Yorkshire Rider was West Yorkshire PTE and as you say Black Prince didn't exist.
Black Prince did exist before deregulation but as a coach operator doing private hires and schools. Only with deregulation did BP and other operators have the opportunity to enter a market that was a monopoly with only the PTE, three and half NBC firms, and the odd survivor like Longstaffs and SYRT.
 
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Steve440

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Black Prince did exist before deregulation but as a coach operator doing private hires and schools. Only with deregulation did BP and other operators have the opportunity to enter a market that was a monopoly with only the PTE, three and half NBC firms, and the odd survivor like Longstaffs and SYRT.
Yes I meant as a local service operator.
 

anothertyke

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All that would be true if the following wasn't also the case...

Do routes transfer between operators? Yes they do.
Are operators making above market level profits? No they aren't, which would be the case if it wasn't genuine competition
No new operators have been able to enter the market, and they are all legacy operations/depot? No - whilst most do have their history in the old LT/LRT, operations such as Uno, Transport UK, Metrobus and Blue Triangle (as was) as well as many other entrants over the interim period. We did have Sullivan Buses but they exited citing commercial inflexibility from TfL.

Both models have pros and cons.

However, I have to smile at the statement that it removes barriers to entry. The reality of the Greater Manchester and the Liverpool CRA examples is that it essentially has created a much greater and different barrier to entry in that small operators have been effectively excluded from the process. That said, TfL now effectively excludes small and medium sized enterprises (SMEs) - all this at a time when central government is allegedly trying to increase SME participation.

It isn't because of the set up costs that SMEs aren't tendering for work. It's because tendering is onerous, they don't have economies of scale, and the profit margins (whether in London or Manchester) are relatively poor compared to what other work is available to small firms.
But doesn't that depend partly on the way the Authority chooses to configure the lots, the niches which are available, the overlaps with schools work etc? I'd have thought that one of WYCA's objectives ought to be to maintain a competitive fringe and to configure the lots so that Square Peg, Connexions etc at least have an opportunity to hold what they've got. Routes like the 9, 31, 940 etc aren't purely commercial are they?
 

mattb7tl

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But doesn't that depend partly on the way the Authority chooses to configure the lots, the niches which are available, the overlaps with schools work etc? I'd have thought that one of WYCA's objectives ought to be to maintain a competitive fringe and to configure the lots so that Square Peg, Connexions etc at least have an opportunity to hold what they've got. Routes like the 9, 31, 940 etc aren't purely commercial are they?
They have already done quite a lot to preserve a role for independents. The whole point of the B-lots is to give smaller operators a realistic route into franchising rather than leaving everything to the large depot based operators.

WYCA has also considered stopping B-lot services from being operated out of A-lot authority depots. That protects independents because once the big operators lose their own depots, they would not have a base to chase every smaller B-lot contract. Independents, meanwhile, would.

This would eliminate competition for B-lots. If a larger operator, or a new entrant, has to build or source an entirely separate depot just to bid for a few B-lot services (infrequent low patronage services), they will not bother. We have seen that under deregulation. More so with tendering in London, where services pass around the same two operators because they are the only ones with a depot in a realistic operational distance. Depot access is one of the biggest barriers to entry.

The only way to include independents is to intentionally pick their more expensive bid to get the same job done.
 

Ballyheigue

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Black Prince did exist before deregulation but as a coach operator doing private hires and schools. Only with deregulation did BP and other operators have the opportunity to enter a market that was a monopoly with only the PTE, three and half NBC firms, and the odd survivor like Longstaffs and SYRT.
I'm well sure they ran a couple of service routes on a commercial basis before deregulation, something like local shopper services in the Morley area springs to mind. Surprisingly they also ran strike busting services on behalf of West Yorkshire Passenger Transport Authority for a while some time in the early 80s as well.
 

stevieinselby

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This would eliminate competition for B-lots. If a larger operator, or a new entrant, has to build or source an entirely separate depot just to bid for a few B-lot services (infrequent low patronage services), they will not bother. We have seen that under deregulation.
It's no different from a new entrant who has to build a depot for council contract services (subsidised stage-carriage or school buses), but that is how a lot of new entrants come into the business. The vast majority of start-ups that I can think of in this neck of the woods have got their business going by using primarily council contracts rather than commercial services – the need to have premises to operate from doesn't change, and if anything the longer terms of a franchise contract compared to the usual subsidy or school contract should give them more security. For coach operators who want to get into bus work, it's the perfect opportunity, they will already have the depot and facilities up and running. The only operators who would be disadvantaged by a ban on running B-lot work from an A-lot depot are the big operators who win the A-lot contracts but don't have any other depots or outstations in the vicinity ... and the whole point of the ban would be to disadvantage them in favour of small operators and start-ups, so that's fine!
 

anothertyke

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They have already done quite a lot to preserve a role for independents. The whole point of the B-lots is to give smaller operators a realistic route into franchising rather than leaving everything to the large depot based operators.

WYCA has also considered stopping B-lot services from being operated out of A-lot authority depots. That protects independents because once the big operators lose their own depots, they would not have a base to chase every smaller B-lot contract. Independents, meanwhile, would.

This would eliminate competition for B-lots. If a larger operator, or a new entrant, has to build or source an entirely separate depot just to bid for a few B-lot services (infrequent low patronage services), they will not bother. We have seen that under deregulation. More so with tendering in London, where services pass around the same two operators because they are the only ones with a depot in a realistic operational distance. Depot access is one of the biggest barriers to entry.

The only way to include independents is to intentionally pick their more expensive bid to get the same job done.
I don't see why the independents are necessarily more expensive in their niches. Midibuses, interworking with school buses, driving 8 to 5 in the suburbs, there are certain types of work which may favour them provided the things they do well are not parcelled up in some huge bidding lot they can't begin to compete for.
 

mattb7tl

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I don't see why the independents are necessarily more expensive in their niches. Midibuses, interworking with school buses, driving 8 to 5 in the suburbs, there are certain types of work which may favour them provided the things they do well are not parcelled up in some huge bidding lot they can't begin to compete for.
Because those niches only exist because the authority has deliberately carved them out to give independents a realistic role. These niches do not need to exist under franchising as it would be cheaper to bundle B-lot work into the A-lots, where the depot, spare fleet, engineering, supervision and driver resources already exist.

It's no different from a new entrant who has to build a depot for council contract services (subsidised stage-carriage or school buses), but that is how a lot of new entrants come into the business. The vast majority of start-ups that I can think of in this neck of the woods have got their business going by using primarily council contracts rather than commercial services – the need to have premises to operate from doesn't change, and if anything the longer terms of a franchise contract compared to the usual subsidy or school contract should give them more security. For coach operators who want to get into bus work, it's the perfect opportunity, they will already have the depot and facilities up and running. The only operators who would be disadvantaged by a ban on running B-lot work from an A-lot depot are the big operators who win the A-lot contracts but don't have any other depots or outstations in the vicinity ... and the whole point of the ban would be to disadvantage them in favour of small operators and start-ups, so that's fine!
Yeah, but the point is that this very rarely happens in practice under deregulation, or under depot dependent franchising models like London (or us with B-lots). When it does happen, new entrants often either stay very small or eventually collapse because the risk is too high (Yorkshire Buses).

The companies with serious financial expertise generally do not take that gamble. When was the last time Stagecoach, Arriva, First or Go-Ahead sourced a brand new depot in someone else's territory just to compete for tenders or commercial work? It barely happens because the upfront cost, staffing risk, engineering setup and uncertainty over future contract wins make it a poor bet.

So yes, banning B-lot work from A-lot depots would protect existing independents with premises, but it would also risk freezing the market around whoever already has a base. That is not the same as encouraging genuine new competition. Independents should have a fair opportunity, but the system should not be designed around shielding them from normal competitive pressure.
 

SCH117X

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If A lot depot operators cannot bid for B lots that surely leaves losing A lot operators able to bid as well as existing independents?
 

stevieinselby

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If A lot depot operators cannot bid for B lots that surely leaves losing A lot operators able to bid as well as existing independents?
It isn't that "A-lot operators" can't bid for B-lots – it's that they can't operate those services from the A-lot depots. So, for example, if the 961/962/965 around Otley and Ilkley were offered as a B-lot contract, Transdev could bid to run it from Harrogate, whether or not they hold onto Keighley. Or the 144/146 around Castleford and Pontefract could be won by Arriva if they ran it from Selby, irrespective of whether or not they get the A-lot for Castleford.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Yeah, but the point is that this very rarely happens in practice under deregulation, or under depot dependent franchising models like London (or us with B-lots). When it does happen, new entrants often either stay very small or eventually collapse because the risk is too high (Yorkshire Buses).
It happens more often than you think. Yorkshire Buses and it's friends failed but not because the deck was stacked against them. What about Connexxions, or Square Peg? Moreover, what about the raft of independents elsewhere who have been able to very successfully carve a niche as large corporates have retreated. Or indeed the many that originally came into the deregulated market?

It's a natural progression as a market is deregulated, and then proceeds to consolidation.

The companies with serious financial expertise generally do not take that gamble. When was the last time Stagecoach, Arriva, First or Go-Ahead sourced a brand new depot in someone else's territory just to compete for tenders or commercial work? It barely happens because the upfront cost, staffing risk, engineering setup and uncertainty over future contract wins make it a poor bet.
It has happened. Is that not what Go Ahead have done with Fourways? Invest in purchasing a business as means to a bridgehead (as well as diversifying their portfolio). Or the schools outbases that Stagecoach and Go Ahead have created in Greater Manchester?
 

Dwarfer1979

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Because those niches only exist because the authority has deliberately carved them out to give independents a realistic role. These niches do not need to exist under franchising as it would be cheaper to bundle B-lot work into the A-lots, where the depot, spare fleet, engineering, supervision and driver resources already exist.
Those niches have always existed, it has never been about local authorities deliberately doing anything. They did so over a century ago before regulation was introduced, the existed throughout the period of nationalisation & regulation, they existed during deregulation and they should exist within franchising.

Small operators are inherently cheaper than big groups, that is why they win the work not due to any efforts by local authorities to carve them out a gap. Big groups may have economies of scale but they also have significantly higher head office and management costs, much higher expectations of profit margins and tend to have to pay their drivers more because they will be expected to cover early, late & weekend work at volume. Smaller companies will have much of the management work undertaken by the owner (often paying themselves less than a big group manager of that level would receive), aren't looking to take money out of the business as they are paying themselves a salary so don't expect more money and there are enough drivers who will accept a slightly lower pay rate for a smaller, more flexible & friendly employer (not all small operators are but those that aren't are the ones who struggle for staff).

Having smaller lots, focussed on the small pvr local routes, that are seperate to the big pvr lots helps prevent those small routes vanishing into the whole and struggling for the attention they need. Without special monitoring structures (at the local authority as much as the operator) a 1 PVR local route performing unreliably will barely be a drop in the ocean of a 200 PVR package but in many ways the passengers are more reliant on reliability whilst in a 10 PVR package it is a significant portion of the work so failures stand out.
Yeah, but the point is that this very rarely happens in practice under deregulation, or under depot dependent franchising models like London (or us with B-lots). When it does happen, new entrants often either stay very small or eventually collapse because the risk is too high (Yorkshire Buses).
There were a number of times operators have entered the London market, the issue has always been the payment model not finding a depot which is just a piece of industrial land to park buses in and a small building to undertake maintenance. The London issue is that it has been found difficult by even established operators to deal with the issue of contract terms meaning inflationary price rises don't match the cost of operation price rises experienced by bus operators - so it is impossible to get a price that is profitable at the end that is low enough to win the contract at the start so the model relies on winning a similar value of work every year to balance the profits from new contracts against the losses on old contracts. A different set of contract terms on how contract price increases are calculated or a more flexible authority and you would see different outcomes.

Outside London it is actually fairly common, there are multitudes of businesses who have successfully started new businesses and almost as many established companies who have similarly picked up new work requiring a new depot to be established. There will always be failures, commercial business is a risk and no one would expect guarantees so there will always been people who make the wrong choices or are caught by circumstances and so don't survive just as there will some who thrive. You seem to have this idea that being small makes companies poor/irrelevant rather than important parts of the business. There is a size point (around the 40-50 vehicles) where owners need to make a choice about their business model, at that point it becomes harder for the owner to be directly involved with the delivery on the ground (you need to start employing managers and you end up much more desk bound) and there are a number of companies where managers sold original independents who had grown beyond that who re-entered again with the express plan to remain small enough to remain hands on (I know two personally who have said this and two others I have seen explicitly state this in print in interviews).
The companies with serious financial expertise generally do not take that gamble. When was the last time Stagecoach, Arriva, First or Go-Ahead sourced a brand new depot in someone else's territory just to compete for tenders or commercial work? It barely happens because the upfront cost, staffing risk, engineering setup and uncertainty over future contract wins make it a poor bet.
It has never been something that the big groups did often because they need higher margins so forcing a gap is much harder than a new start-up. Stagecoach did it a number of times at the height of the bus wars but they got a lot of criticism for acting in such a manner when they did so there is an element of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" in this one. Go-Ahead have done it several times more recently, Cornwall is the biggest and highest profile but there have been a couple of expansions around contracts in the south that have developed (Dartford fast track is a smaller but high profile recent example) and the West Yorkshire expansion (buy a local coach operator and use those depots to enter the bus market) would also seem to qualify. First & Arriva have both in recent years more focussed on selling of struggling operations, many of which have been turned around by new owners, than taking the punt on expansions (and that as much applies to opportunities from established depots as new sites).
So yes, banning B-lot work from A-lot depots would protect existing independents with premises, but it would also risk freezing the market around whoever already has a base. That is not the same as encouraging genuine new competition. Independents should have a fair opportunity, but the system should not be designed around shielding them from normal competitive pressure.
I can see arguments for keeping different sized lots seperate for reasons not related to protecting independents. Not having a contract reliant on an operator retaining a seperate contract (if the B-Lot and A-lot don't finish at the same time, then you have the issue of what happens if the operator loses the A-lot first and then has nowhere to run the B-lot from causing disruption in the middle of that contract - probably less the initial contracts as I would expect B-lots to have shorter lengths but as such they would very quickly get out of sync) which could be used as lever to retain the bigger contract and to keep the contract managements seperate and clearer both are logical reasons for seperation. The issue is the other way round, the A-lots are too big for all but the largest bidders to consider so they are protected from many local options whilst B-lots (as was seen in Manchester) are perfectly reasonable for big companies to bid for as they are perfectly able to source a seperate depot for them and they are still able to assemble a big enough volume to justify their participation.

A depot isn't this great investment or complicated thing to set up, it can (and has) been done by many operators in weeks when needed and in post-industrial areas like the big northern conurbations there are plenty of possible locations for a smaller depot site (finding a site for 150+ buses is difficult, finding a site for less than 50 is not) so there is much less risk of freezing of the market than you seem to think.
 

AB93

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When was the last time Stagecoach, Arriva, First or Go-Ahead sourced a brand new depot in someone else's territory just to compete for tenders or commercial work? It barely happens because the upfront cost, staffing risk, engineering setup and uncertainty over future contract wins make it a poor bet.
Stagecoach in Guildford - ended up ousting Arriva!
 

anothertyke

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@Dwarfer1979 I agree with a lot of what you say, but what about the old section 3(2) routes on the fringes of London? Back in the day, the likes of Epsom Coaches were fulfilling the same function as Connexions etc. Has that all changed now?
 
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193 Wright bus electrics ordered for the weaver network.

A decent enough announcement spoiled somewhat by a rather stupid soundbite;

"We're proud to be buying from a UK firm- it's another benefit of a publicly- controlled bus network".

So where were all the private companies Wright Streetdecks and ADLs built??
 

JKP

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A decent enough announcement spoiled somewhat by a rather stupid soundbite;

"We're proud to be buying from a UK firm- it's another benefit of a publicly- controlled bus network".

So where were all the private companies Wright Streetdecks and ADLs built??
The quote about buses weaving through the streets is a bit naff too. Indeed it suggests that there will be the same old congestion issues and road user issues whoever is running the buses. It would be better if the Mayor could take a serious look there but that of course would not be popular with the motorist.
 

Kaliwax

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And also TFL has buses that was built in China with the BYDs. Bee Network has Volvo BZLs that was built in Sweden and Egypt. She can't really claim it's a benefit of franchising
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The quote about buses weaving through the streets is a bit naff too. Indeed it suggests that there will be the same old congestion issues and road user issues whoever is running the buses. It would be better if the Mayor could take a serious look there but that of course would not be popular with the motorist.
Indeed. One of the moves in the Bee Network is that they have increased PVRs on certain routes (53? 135?) to notionally deal with congestion but not dealing with the root cause. Whilst on this forum, we are public transport advocates, politicians are loathe to be regarded as "anti-motorist".

With the exception of Halifax and Wakefield, I find it quite startling about how car centric the 1960s and 1970s road networks are in the other major towns and cities.
 

Andyh82

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A decent enough announcement spoiled somewhat by a rather stupid soundbite;

"We're proud to be buying from a UK firm- it's another benefit of a publicly- controlled bus network".

So where were all the private companies Wright Streetdecks and ADLs built??
Someone needs to tell her that there are already Wrightbus Streetdeck Electroliners running in Leeds, and there are 100s of Wrightbuses in general running around West Yorkshire
 

Cesarcollie

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@Dwarfer1979 I agree with a lot of what you say, but what about the old section 3(2) routes on the fringes of London? Back in the day, the likes of Epsom Coaches were fulfilling the same function as Connexions etc. Has that all changed now?

The funding arrangements and TfL T & C’s have made (what used to be called) section 3(2) routes largely unviabl. I don’t think any exist now. If they do, the numbers are down to a mere handful.
 

Ballyheigue

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Do these new electrics come with compulsory air conditioning that has to be on when the weather gets above 18 degrees outside? It's a terrible thing when even the most powerful deodorants don't work by mid afternoon due to the over the top heat inside the bus to work, and the same if you've had to be out catching a bus during the morning. As for the return journey home, forget paying for a sauna, just catch a bus!
 

Goldfish62

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Do these new electrics come with compulsory air conditioning that has to be on when the weather gets above 18 degrees outside? It's a terrible thing when even the most powerful deodorants don't work by mid afternoon due to the over the top heat inside the bus to work, and the same if you've had to be out catching a bus during the morning. As for the return journey home, forget paying for a sauna, just catch a bus!
In respect of the first generation Electroliners there's air cooling on the top deck, but nothing on the lower deck or single deck. I have no idea about the 2nd generation ones that have been ordered.

If you want proper aircon that works you need to order from BYD!
 

GoneSouth

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In respect of the first generation Electroliners there's air cooling on the top deck, but nothing on the lower deck or single deck. I have no idea about the 2nd generation ones that have been ordered.

If you want proper aircon that works you need to order from BYD!
And lock the Windows shut!

I was on a bus yesterday where the aircon unit upstairs was fighting a losing battle because the windows were open allowing 33C air to blow in!
 

Goldfish62

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The funding arrangements and TfL T & C’s have made (what used to be called) section 3(2) routes largely unviabl. I don’t think any exist now. If they do, the numbers are down to a mere handful.
The last ones were converted to London Service Permit routes around 15-20 years ago.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

And also TFL has buses that was built in China with the BYDs. Bee Network has Volvo BZLs that was built in Sweden and Egypt. She can't really claim it's a benefit of franchising
I can see TfGM only buying British now onwards.

The TfL system is very different from the franchised networks being developed elsewhere.
 
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Andyh82

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There are photos floating around of new AccessBuses that will be being delivered soon and will be in Weaver Network livery

To me the livery looks like if you took the current Keighley Bus Company livery and made it less stylish

Also we are now going to have a situation where AccessBuses and normal public buses look exactly the same, possibly in the future the exact same style of vehicle. This won’t have happened before.
 

GoneSouth

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There are photos floating around of new AccessBuses that will be being delivered soon and will be in Weaver Network livery

To me the livery looks like if you took the current Keighley Bus Company livery and made it less stylish

Also we are now going to have a situation where AccessBuses and normal public buses look exactly the same, possibly in the future the exact same style of vehicle. This won’t have happened before.
That’s not a bad thing, they’re all part of the integrated network.
 

Ballyheigue

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What I'd love to see the Weaver people do is air conditioning in it's bus stations, instead some like Leeds are greenhouses! Ok so many won't be waiting too long but some will be if buses miss and you don't want to give up your place in the queue.
 

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