A week of delay on SWR

[Teddy Greene]

The diesel fleet has had a few issues with engines lately, hence the various short forms. In my eyes both Weymouth trains should call at Basingstoke even when things are good, just to help even out the load. You just need to be at Winchester to see the volume of passengers leaving the Weymouth - London train which is next stop Woking and remaining on the platform for the train from Portsmouth to take them to Basingstoke.

Same as what floored them last year?

Mean they wouldn't be short forms if they wasn't still ferrying fresh air around on the pointless pen mills

 

[Craig1122]

So having to go and collect my son yet again, for what seems like about the 10th time this month, when something like this happens, why can they not terminate the trains at somewhere like Clapham, Woking or wherever and run a skeleton service back the other way, rather than simply stopping all trains as far afield as Basingstoke and beyond?

This is my big bugbear, it's like management think every journey is people getting to London. So when an incident happens everything on the network just stops. It's been proven again and again that the current contingency plans just don't work.

They really need to work on a reduced "special" service with shuttles where appropriate. Windsor had no trains for about 6 hours yesterday. In this kind of situation something like: run a shuttle Staines - Windsor, cancel all Waterloo - Windsor to free up resources and just run Waterloo - Reading with a couple of extra stops. You could do similar elsewhere. Yes people will still be delayed but at least they can get to where they're going.

The decline in service recovery has been horrific. There was a time when a fatality meant a couple of hours with no service. Now it seems to mean almost nothing running for the rest of the day regardless of when it happens.

I'm rapidly losing any faith in SWR and I'm getting very unwilling to use them when I don't have to.

 

[Class 317]

Service recovery on SWR does seem to be the worst on the network in my experience including of Friday.

People keep mentioning that fatalities and trespass are out of the railways control but both are somewhat preventable. For example fitting fast line platform with fences and lockable gates like has been done at most stations between Reading and London. Also trespass can be reduced by improving fencing beside the lines and at Station platform ends particularly in hot spot areas.

Vauxhall seem to be a fatality hotspot. Is it possible to use through line platform barriers here to reduce incidents?

Completely agree with the posters up thread that no short shuttle services really seem to be instigated by SWR to keep non London passengers moving.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Vauxhall seem to be a fatality hotspot. Is it possible to use through line platform barriers here to reduce incidents?

Access to platforms 5/6 is already blocked by locked gates. Most (if not all) of the recent people hit there, including Friday, have involved the other platforms and stopping trains. Even the Reading services now stop at Vauxhall since the May timetable change.

So the only further mitigation you could really do is not let anyone onto the platforms until the train has stopped (I think we can all agree not really workable where trains are every few minutes and platforms 7/8 have trains in opposite directions sharing the same island platform), or fitting platform edge doors (possibly complicated given the variety of stock and train lengths that stop at Vauxhall).

Manual barriers like those at Wimbledon and Earlsfield need to be positioned far enough away from the edge of the platform so that ramps for disabled passengers can be deployed and the user able to manoeuvre off, which would make the remaining space on some of the island platforms for passengers rather confined, especially 7/8. You’d also need several usable openings if they weren’t to be opened until the train had come to a complete stop first which even so would increase dwell times as people navigate to/from nearest access gate rather than just getting on/off the train from/to the platform.

 

[sharpener]

I live at Clapham Junction and use Earlsfield station a couple of times a week. I am over 70, and trust me, it is a `big deal` if I have to walk 1 to 2 kilometres, especially in the current heatwave. OK, there is a very good bus network available, but it will take a lot longer than 3 minutes by train from Clapham Junction.

I thoroughly sympathise and wondered about posting a similar message. Son's family are 10 mins on foot from Earlsfield but I would not think of walking from any of the other stations mentioned.

 

[Falcon1200]

People keep mentioning that fatalities and trespass are out of the railways control but both are somewhat preventable.

For many years the railway industry has worked closely with the Samaritans in a an effort to reduce fatalities, this has included placing suitable signage on platforms (which is something checked when an incident occurs) and training staff to recognise and assist potentially vulnerable people.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

The main reason for how bad service recovery is is because trains coming into Waterloo have the stock doing one thing the driver doing another and the guard does something else so straightaway delayed trains coming in are affecting up to three trains going out.

This means that controllers are mostly unable to turn trains round as often crew are due a break and therefore are unwilling or are unable to be turned around, this is what the MD refers to when he talks about full crew working which was cut to something like 8% under First as it was more cost effective but means disruption quickly becomes unmanageable

 

[Craig1122]

The main reason for how bad service recovery is is because trains coming into Waterloo have the stock doing one thing the driver doing another and the guard does something else so straightaway delayed trains coming in are affecting up to three trains going out.

This means that controllers are mostly unable to turn trains round as often crew are due a break and therefore are unwilling or are unable to be turned around, this is what the MD refers to when he talks about full crew working which was cut to something like 8% under First as it was more cost effective but means disruption quickly becomes unmanageable

There's a freedom of information request out there which said that SWR paid out around £8.5 million in the last full year in taxi/hotel/delay repay claims. That was up from £6.5 million the previous year. I'd love to know how much was saved scrapping full crew working and how the figures compare!

 

[Dr Hoo]

There's a freedom of information request out there which said that SWR paid out around £8.5 million in the last full year in taxi/hotel/delay repay claims. That was up from £6.5 million the previous year. I'd love to know how much was saved scrapping full crew working and how the figures compare!

Any valid answer to that question would have to include considering what proportion of disruption Full Crew Working would help to mitigate, obviously not 100%.

 

[Undaunted]

The main reason for how bad service recovery is is because trains coming into Waterloo have the stock doing one thing the driver doing another and the guard does something else so straightaway delayed trains coming in are affecting up to three trains going out.

This means that controllers are mostly unable to turn trains round as often crew are due a break and therefore are unwilling or are unable to be turned around, this is what the MD refers to when he talks about full crew working which was cut to something like 8% under First as it was more cost effective but means disruption quickly becomes unmanageable

At the risk of stating the obvious, full crew working requires drivers and guards from the same depot to have identical route knowledge. If, for example, you compare the route knowledge of Wimbledon drivers and guards (in the forums ‘railway jobs and careers’ section), you will see that whereas the drivers have main line work to Alton and Portsmouth the guards’ diagrams are confined to suburban duties. A further complication is that many empty stock workings only require drivers, so full crew working would dictate a number of driver diagrams devoted only to empty stock movements, which is potentially very wasteful because of the ‘tidal’ nature of empty stock moves. And finally, drivers require time for preparation and disposal of traction which is different from any equivalent time for guards.

I am not suggesting that greater use of full crew working is not possible, but perhaps at the expense of potential inefficiency and wastefulness in utilisation of resources.

 

[zsl11913]

It's just a thought, but would it be possible to turn around some trains, even if it's one or two trains an hour, at stations like Earlsfield, Wimbledon, Raynes Park etc when accidents happened at Vauxall like last week? Please forgive me if I am not making any sense...

 

[Phil R]

SWR service recovery will probably always be poor while units, drivers and guards are on different diagrams. Once the lines reopen, the service is erratic for the rest of the day and predictably unpredictable.
I got to Waterloo just after the PHBT happened on Friday, so it was a case of back to London Bridge and home via Redhill for the second Friday in a row, the third time this month and the twelfth time in the past year. it's getting expensive.

 

[Falcon1200]

I am not suggesting that greater use of full crew working is not possible, but perhaps at the expense of potential inefficiency and wastefulness in utilisation of resources.

You make good points, but as an ex-Controller, not for any part of the Southern, thankfully (but for a while dealing with Glasgow's suburban services) different next workings for Driver, Guard and set(s) are an absolute nightmare to manage when things go wrong. And should therefore be avoided as much as possible.

 

[Three-Nine]

Little related, SWR are holding a public consultation about a future new timetable throughout June. There will be in-person meetings at major SWR stations including Waterloo and Salisbury, and there are posters at stations with a QR code if you wish to add your thoughts.

 

[NSEWonderer]

It's just a thought, but would it be possible to turn around some trains, even if it's one or two trains an hour, at stations like Earlsfield, Wimbledon, Raynes Park etc when accidents happened at Vauxall like last week? Please forgive me if I am not making any sense...

Only Wimbledon has the possibility of a turn around and would be for ECS only after dropping passengers at Wimbledon if on the Down main fast, either leave on ground postion light authority with correct routing on London end of platform towards London or head towards Raynes park but using the routing S on the route indicator to get on the down slow then as followed below.

Down main slow requires actually going almost towards raynes park in the curve behind the ground position light there to then cross back onto the up line on its authority.

Up trains can turn around however at Wimbledon with main aspect signals and route indicators on the platforms to allow this.

Logistically to do this at Wimbledon would be carnage.

Raynes park and Vauxhall don't have any plausible way to turn around without wrong direction moves.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Raynes park and Vauxhall don't have any plausible way to turn around without wrong direction moves.

They have done this for engineering works but it presumably needs a pilotman or something for the wrong direction move - and if they are sorting out a major disruption, there probably wouldn't be anyone spare to supervise the moves?

I think it also halves the service level below Raynes Park which would be less than ideal in major disruption with delayed passengers building up everywhere?

 

[NSEWonderer]

They have done this for engineering works but it presumably needs a pilotman or something for the wrong direction move - and if they are sorting out a major disruption, there probably wouldn't be anyone spare to supervise the moves?

I think it also halves the service level below Raynes Park which would be less than ideal in major disruption with delayed passengers building up everywhere?

Pilotman is specifically designated for degraded working and is often a network rail employee rather than another driver. Drivers can route conduct but you wouldn't be route conducting a wrong direction move in this scenario.

Logistically it would be a bad idea to try do wrong direction moves during disruption at either of the stations. Planned turn around would have been setup before the block prior to this with the right setup.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Pilotman is specifically designated for degraded working

A part of this being that the pilotman has to return to point of origin to pilot the next and subsequent train(s) in the same direction, which means 'passing' back on return services, which under random disruption are likely to be backed up and going nowhere.
Pilot working for Eng work is a carefully planned scenario.

 

[DerekC]

The track layout and signalling design is (in theory) designed around a specific set of contingency plans that can be applied when specific tracks or routes are blocked and you are in degraded or emergency mode. Trying to bodge together ad-hoc services that include wrong line moves that aren't signalled and aren't in the contingency plan is usually a waste of time, unless something really unforeseen happens. But of course the more complicated you make the layout to cope with all sorts of different scenarios, the more likely it is to fail (and the more expensive it gets). So it's always a compromise.

As a very frequent user until a few years ago, there seemed to be a fallback mode when one pair of lines was out between Waterloo and Wimbledon of run shuttles to Woking and turn back virtually all the main line stuff there. That was OK, except that finding out what was going where and from which platform at Woking was a nightmare. I recall a 455 standing alongside Platform 5 with "Waterloo" on the front, "Salisbury" confidently on the platform indicator, the PA giving continuous completely useless apologies for very late trains and a member of station staff with a megaphone trying to make himself hear to announce "Guildford Train". Meanwhile there was what turned out to be a Portsmouth stopper at Platform 4, completely unannounced until about two minutes before it left - cue mad rush over the footbridge.

So chaos on that route is nothing new - the disappointment is that it doesn't seem to have got any better.

 

[bb21]

So having to go and collect my son yet again, for what seems like about the 10th time this month, when something like this happens, why can they not terminate the trains at somewhere like Clapham, Woking or wherever and run a skeleton service back the other way, rather than simply stopping all trains as far afield as Basingstoke and beyond?

When there has been engineering work between Weybridge and Wimbledon, SWR will run trains from Southampton/Basingstoke as far as Woking, and then disembark passengers there so they can put them on one of the reduced services that runs via Staines. The driver will then walk to the other end of the train and the journey back will start at Woking, so the points/signals etc must allow for trains to run out of Platforms 1 and 2 back towards Basingstoke?

I would have thought train operators would have a "playbook" where if an incident happens that closes the lines, e.g. a tree down at Walton-on-Thames or a points failure at Earlsfield, they could simply have a pre-prepared plan B that they could switch in?

Obviously it is not as simple as this, otherwise they would do it?

Clapham is not viable as mainline turnbacks will require shunting via the yard and AAUI maximum 4tph assuming nothing is happening in the yard itself which is rare especially at shoulder peak times. Driver route knowledge will also be a constraint especially for outer depots which longer-distance services will more likely be crewed by. They do occasionally turn on the mainline on the Windsor side but again has severe capacity constraints.

Woking is possible but can be hampered by booked crew changes at Waterloo, and congestion it can cause when a platform is taken out for an extended period of time due to turnaround times. Stepping up trains from one diagram to another is not always straight forward so you can't simply say form the next service to whatever. They can send them into the sidings but again one issue is route knowledge, plus siding space really is rather limited there. Platform 6 can be useful to keep trains but it can only take max single units.

Basingtoke is by far the best option to turn things, and West of England services all have the same booked crews into and out of Waterloo which is why they are the first candidates to be curtailed to thin out services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2026 ==

The West of England mainline hasn't run on time for months.
Too many trains for what track there is.
one late in the morning it stays consistant to that delay all day.
Theres no recovery time, even when they decide to turn round at honiton

West of Salisbury is almost impossible to recover once you accrue a 10-minute delay until something is cancelled, an unfortunate consequence of maxing out capacity with multiple single-line sections en route. More recently more emphasis is being put on ensuring the up trains are run on time where possible, hence delayed down services being held at Honiton for extended periods of time.

...staffing is within the company’s gift….

...within DfT's gift...

 

[Teddy Greene]

they could start by ripping the pointless pen mill trains that would help both fuel & unit shortages and with the main route running on time

 

[bb21]

they could start by ripping the pointless pen mill trains that would help both fuel & unit shortages and with the main route running on time

They are route retention runs, so no, unless you mean the shuttles, which will mean a minuscule saving on fuel. Pen Mill runs have little to no impact on mainline punctuality.

 

[Kite159]

I presume Teddy means the handful of daytime services which run Salisbury - Yeovil Pen Mill/Junction via Frome because he deems they as carrying fresh air. They might be lightly loaded at times, but do pick up a good few passengers along the way.

Unless he means the peak time additional services which give stations Salisbury - Yeovil Junction 2tph, which extend to Pen Mill (one extending all the way to Westbury)

("West of England services all have the same booked crews into and out of Waterloo", most of the time they do, but there are times the crew changes at Waterloo, mainly when it involves Waterloo/Basingstoke staff, or when the Salisbury driver goes off to work an electric service)

 

[zsl11913]

Shepperton service is now suspended for two days in a row due to flooding. Didn't realise that section beyond Fulwell is vulnerable. That said, wouldn't it be nice to curtail train at Strawberry Hill etc instead of cancelling them in full?

 

[Craig1122]

Shepperton service is now suspended for two days in a row due to flooding. Didn't realise that section beyond Fulwell is vulnerable. That said, wouldn't it be nice to curtail train at Strawberry Hill etc instead of cancelling them in full?

This has been an ongoing problem I think pretty much since the line was built. Network Rail spent millions a few years back to supposedly solve the problem. It hasn't, although the closures seem to be less frequent now.

 

[Sealink]

I have a friend who was a signaller on what is now SWR and he just describes current practices as lazy. Mainly on West of England and Wessex mainlines.

Can't go into too much detail but he says some of the worst delays could be mitigated as they were years ago.

 

[NSEWonderer]

The reluctance to use the Windsor Reversible often irks me especially when a service not stopping at Queenstown road is following a rounder thats already running late and stopping there

 

[bb21]

I have a friend who was a signaller on what is now SWR and he just describes current practices as lazy. Mainly on West of England and Wessex mainlines.

Can't go into too much detail but he says some of the worst delays could be mitigated as they were years ago.

Three words: not politically acceptable.
I'll leave that there.

 

[swr444]

The reluctance to use the Windsor Reversible often irks me especially when a service not stopping at Queenstown road is following a rounder thats already running late and stopping there

Really annoys me when I’m working an up Windsor and the signaller just lets the ARS set the route behind the stopper. If it was 1 min late you’d then be late into Waterloo and delay the reading out. It’s less off a problem now the readings leave at 08/48 and from platforms 15-19

 

[embers25]

The West of England off peak has up to 10 minutes slack between Basingstoke and Tisbury westbound and so my biggest frustration is that they won't hold a train curtailed to start at Basingstoke for 5 minutes during disruption to wait for the incoming train running late from London. Really annoying to watch it then sit in Andover for 5 minutes particularly. Also, its annoying when they bring it in on Platform 2 from the siding early preventing the London train that would have easily made the connection from making it.

Stopping the Winchester to Woking fasts at Basingstoke would not only help with service recovery and save people changing, but also relieve pressure on XC to/from Winchester. It would also help the WoE trains cope with overcrowding between Basingstoke and London.