Great British Railways - First Train in New Livery

[wls1]

Whether its anything to do with GBR (unsure) however several 700/0s have had their diagonal stripes at the end of the carriages removed so they are now plain white. 700040 and 700005 are a couple

 

[physics34]

Whether its anything to do with GBR (unsure) however several 700/0s have had their diagonal stripes at the end of the carriages removed so they are now plain white. 700040 and 700005 are a couple

The sashes were peeling off. The sooner these units get a better livery the better.

 

[Class 466]

The sashes were peeling off. The sooner these units get a better livery the better.

Anything is better than current

 

[Park47515]

Anything is better than current

Oh I don't know there are worse liveries in the country.

 

[Tobberz]

So do we have any guesses as to which TOC is getting the next one of these liveries? In the understanding that each gets one GBR-style train.

 

[Russel]

Anything is better than current

To be fair, if it was kept clean, it would look quite smart, but we all know it has never been kept clean!

 

[jamster47]

So do we have any guesses as to which TOC is getting the next one of these liveries? In the understanding that each gets one GBR-style train.

c2c next? They will be marking 12 months of nationalisation at end of July.

 

[saismee]

To be fair, if it was kept clean, it would look quite smart, but we all know it has never been kept clean!

I think a decent livery that hides dirt is more cost-effective than deep cleaning the train exteriors every night, though it would look very smart.

 

[Class 466]

Does anyone have a source for this? It’s been repeated many times as fact, but an email from Southern says:


Which seems pretty categorical to me that it’ll be Thameslink Southern Great Northern Limited. Which is a mouthful, but it is what it is. Unless it’s changed. Or someone has got something wrong in the emailing department.

And, to get back on topic, no chance of any of that legal shenanigans changing the new livery. Which I saw in person the other day and was pleasantly surprised that it looked less objectionable in the flesh.

Confirmation of this on the GTR website:

GTR stands for Greater Thameslink Railway, and includes Southern, Thameslink, Great Northern and Gatwick Express. GTR and Greater Thameslink Railway are trading names of Thameslink Southern Great Northern Limited (TSGNL).

 

[Goldfish62]

Confirmation of this on the GTR website:

Yes, Thameslink Southern Great Northern Limited is the company name, as per Companies House. Not any other name that's been suggested on this thread.

THAMESLINK SOUTHERN GREAT NORTHERN LIMITED overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK https://share.google/VmNk6CmsPAvwqdDAG

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THAMESLINK SOUTHERN GREAT NORTHERN LIMITED​

Company number 12545324

 

[Warrior2852]

Yes, Thameslink Southern Great Northern Limited is the company name, as per Companies House. Not any other name that's been suggested on this thread.

THAMESLINK SOUTHERN GREAT NORTHERN LIMITED overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK https://share.google/VmNk6CmsPAvwqdDAG

That's the legal name, which was never in doubt. But the actual public branding name is Greater Thameslink Railway, subdivided into the usual 4 for individual trains.

 

[Goldfish62]

That's the legal name, which was never in doubt. But the actual public branding name is Greater Thameslink Railway, subdivided into the usual 4 for individual trains.

I don't understand why there's a deemed need for a public-facing brand name when the service groups have their own well-known brands. That just causes unnecessary confusion. In what circumstances will it be used, except internally?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Guess Merseyrail (like some cities with TFL and Manchester Bee) will be separate to GBR, being run under a contract by Serco and Transport UK Group, and with the777s keeping their own livery?

Only 2 more years for the current 25-year Merseyrail contract to run (ends 31 Mar 2028).
No hint yet of how Merseytravel intends to operate the line beyond then.
I would guess the 777s will stay much as they are whoever the operator is.

 

[Goldfish62]

Only 2 more years for the current 25-year Merseyrail contract to run (ends 31 Mar 2028).
No hint yet of how Merseytravel intends to operate the line beyond then.
I would guess the 777s will stay much as they are whoever the operator is.

The 777s are owned by Merseytravel.

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't understand why there's a deemed need for a public-facing brand name when the service groups have their own well-known brands. That just causes unnecessary confusion. In what circumstances will it be used, except internally?

Yes - Great Northern services operated with Thameslink branded trains and Gatwick Express / Southern branding trains operated with each others.

It is interesting they are talking about reducing Graffiti in the class 700s. I wonder how they will do that in reality as they are normally fairly disgusting. The morons doing it will lock themselves in, so to me the only real way is to actually clean it (which as we can see is not effective) so the next step is probably a film to rip off every time they get trashed.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes - Great Northern services operated with Thameslink branded trains and Gatwick Express / Southern branding trains operated with each others.

Sorry, not with you in respect of my comment.

 

[JaJaWa]

That's the legal name, which was never in doubt. But the actual public branding name is Greater Thameslink Railway, subdivided into the usual 4 for individual trains.

Correct https://gtrailway.com/

 

[williamn]

I find the while GBR roll out so odd. First it feels way too soon given that GBR isn’t yet an entity and no one knows how it’ll work.

And at the same time, and maybe because of that, it feels so understated. Took Southern today and you’d not know anything had changed - no posters, no bunting, no sense of it being an event.

Maybe they’ll wait until everything is nationalised to do a big splash. I can’t but help compare it unfavourably to other launches - such as Network SouthEast or even the electrification of the Hastings Line where a big splash was made.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I don't understand why there's a deemed need for a public-facing brand name when the service groups have their own well-known brands. That just causes unnecessary confusion. In what circumstances will it be used, except internally?

GBR does not exist legally yet. In law, each TOC is still a separate company, albeit they are all owned by the Governnment and managed by DFTO.

 

[GoneSouth]

Home - GTR

GTR is the UK’s largest railway franchise, operating Southern, Thameslink, Great Northern and Gatwick Express

gtrailway.com

From the GTR website:

GTR and Greater Thameslink Railway are trading names of Thameslink Southern Great Northern Limited (TSGNL)

It’s all just word salad at this point and confusing to the customer. What a mess

 

[Merle Haggard]

A basic marketing principle is that if you take over an organisation and aim to improve its perception with the public you carry out the improvements under the old identity. Then when everything is much better you have the image & logo re-launch.
The logic is that if you introduce the new image/logo/livery at the start, it's still associated with the bad old days.

Doesn't seem to be applied on the railways. Network South-East painted the lamp-posts red prematurely.

 

[Failed Unit]

Sorry, not with you in respect of my comment.

I was agreeing that i see no reason to change. What we have now works with confusion at times. calling everything GTR as you state will cause more confusion. (gatwick express inparticular)

 

[Invincible]

With SWR, First Group were having major issues after the previous profitable franchise became loss making, plus service degenerated with strikes and other issues.

South Western Railway may be nationalised after firm loses £137m

Accounts show joint venture between FirstGroup and MTR could go bust before end of 2020

www.theguardian.com

This article is more than 6 years old

South Western Railway may be nationalised after firm loses £137m​

This article is more than 6 years old
Accounts show joint venture between FirstGroup and MTR could go bust before end of 2020

Gwyn Topham Transport correspondent

https://www.google.com/preferences/source?q=theguardian.com
The strike-hit South Western Railway (SWR) franchise faces the prospect of nationalisation after its accounts revealed “significant doubt” that it could see out the year without going bust.
The train company’s directors said it was uncertain that it could fulfil the terms of its franchise, while a £146m cash injection from its parent groups was likely to be used up before the end of 2020.

So was a relief to First, and passengers when nationalised.

Also First also ran into problems with school bus services in UK and US.

Without the franchise system longer more efficient train leases can be taken.
Just one train with new livery

 

[vuzzeho]

So do we have any guesses as to which TOC is getting the next one of these liveries? In the understanding that each gets one GBR-style train.

I think now is the actual rollout across DFTO. C2C as mentioned will probably be next - they're repainting their 357s, aren't they? Though I have heard some rumblings on here about it being Azumas next.

I don't understand why there's a deemed need for a public-facing brand name when the service groups have their own well-known brands. That just causes unnecessary confusion. In what circumstances will it be used, except internally?

I expect it's just because the GTR name is used in a lot of places already (if you want to see an example, go to St Pancras International's Thameslink area - there's a big GTR sign!) and so, if they then changed the public-facing name completely to TSGN, they'd need to start rebranding lots of elements like the website, staff uniforms, the aforementioned sign, all onboard signage and reference information, buy a new domain and send notices out to affected parties, including customers. This would be pretty useless if the brand is then disappearing in about a year. Reusing the initials GTR is just easier and cheaper as an interim measure until GBR can come and the brand can actually just cease to exist. They kept the brand names of all other companies when they were taken over (excluding VTEC, but that was under very different circumstances and they couldn't have).

A basic marketing principle is that if you take over an organisation and aim to improve its perception with the public you carry out the improvements under the old identity. Then when everything is much better you have the image & logo re-launch.
The logic is that if you introduce the new image/logo/livery at the start, it's still associated with the bad old days.

Doesn't seem to be applied on the railways. Network South-East painted the lamp-posts red prematurely.

To be fair to them, FG's SWR started to introduce the 701s at pace just before it got nationalised. They seem to be using that principle with the 701 rollout and things like the TRU and the Great British Rail Sale. When the new trains are ordered for Northern, GWR, Chiltern, SWR, and whoever else, they'll take credit for that, same with EWR opening. That's also why the GBR branded trains have usually been the newest in that operator's fleet (excluding GTR).

 

[FinsburyPark]

GBR does not exist legally yet. In law, each TOC is still a separate company, albeit they are all owned by the Governnment and managed by DFTO.

Isn't it all a bit wierd.

One train in new livery per TOC.

They also haven't got all the legal stuff sorted so GBR doesn't appear to exist in practice.

And they are kind of prolonging the franchise system, which they are trying to get rid of.

Make it make sense.

I'm out on the London Victoria Brighton train right now.

 

[Benjwri]

And they are kind of prolonging the franchise system, which they are trying to get rid of.

Don’t see how that comes into it really? The names are stickers that could be removed in about 2 minutes if they wanted.

It’s simply promotion of GBR. They haven’t paid for the current ones, and it makes sense to start putting them on trains as needed. As they said they were doing in an interview.

 

[Russel]

Isn't it all a bit wierd.

One train in new livery per TOC.

They also haven't got all the legal stuff sorted so GBR doesn't appear to exist in practice.

GBR Is coming though, even if it isn't fully sorted legally, so they may as well make a start on branding.

 

[ElijahsTrains]

Talking of GBR Liveries & branding, i'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet but Heidi Alaxander gave very little information on what the GBR regional identifiers will be. At first we weren't sure if there would be any, however it seems as if they will be simarlary related to the current TOC for example: EMR will be GBR: East midlands and Avanti & LNER: GBR east & west coast etc. Nevertheless, it still seems like a huge missed opportunity as basically every train will have the same nearly identical livery except for different text so it dosen't really properly distinguish the difference between commuter, regional & intercity trains which i think is a big flaw.

 

[Goldfish62]

Talking of GBR Liveries & branding, i'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet but Heidi Alaxander gave very little information on what the GBR regional identifiers will be. At first we weren't sure if there would be any, however it seems as if they will be simarlary related to the current TOC for example: EMR will be GBR: East midlands and Avanti & LNER: GBR east & west coast etc. Nevertheless, it still seems like a huge missed opportunity as basically every train will have the same nearly identical livery except for different text so it dosen't really properly distinguish the difference between commuter, regional & intercity trains which i think is a big flaw.

This comes back to my whole beef with it. The government shouldn't have any role on the future branding of GBR. It should be up to GBR and its senior team when it gets up and running.

Imagine back in 1986 the Department of Transport telling Chris Green what the livery and branding for services in London and SE should be.

 

[physics34]

I expect in a few years regional stuff will appear. Wasnt there a time when every loco was rail blue and all coaching stock was blue and grey until the PTE things started and those DMUs got white with a blue stripe.. late 70s?