Senior Railcard Survey

[Snow1964]

I can sort of see the point of having a morning restriction on railcards.

9:30 seems too late though and will stifle day trips. 9:00 should be the maximum.

I have recently renewed my railcard at my local station, which I got last year when I was 60

Didn't even realise there was a time restriction in one part of the country

Haven't been sent a survey, so don't know who the selected sub-set of railcard holders are. But presumably they want to distort the results in their favour so chose to exclude people in South West

 

[swt_passenger]

That applies across the whole area, and can mean that it can be earlier for a contra-peak flow than it is for the peak (inevitably, towards London) flow.

Yes that’s what I meant, I was just thinking a number of posts seem to have been made assuming an existing 0930 cutoff?

 

[alistairlees]

I have recently renewed my railcard at my local station, which I got last year when I was 60

Didn't even realise there was a time restriction in one part of the country

Haven't been sent a survey, so don't know who the selected sub-set of railcard holders are. But presumably they want to distort the results in their favour so chose to exclude people in South West

Did you provide an email address? It's not mandatory when buying a railcard at a station.

 

[D1537]

I don't have a Senior Railcard (it's not long until I qualify, mind!) but we do have a 2Together railcard which of course has the 9.30am restriction on weekdays.

When I travel solo I often end up on early weekday trains that are basically carting around fresh air. Very early northbound departures from Kings Cross spring to mind - I've been on the 0640 Harrogate, the 0645 Lincoln and the 0733 Newcastle recently and they're basically empty. Surely these are the sorts of train that you'd want to fill up? If you can get there early, the 0645 is perfect for a day trip to Lincoln and the 0733 for a trip to York, etc.

 

[Snow1964]

Did you provide an email address? It's not mandatory when buying a railcard at a station.

Yes

 

[Coleridge]

Not being able to use my railcard before 09.30 would mean my travelling a great deal less than I do now.

All my travel is leisure travel, and almost all of it discretionary. If I can no longer take a train that gets me into London before midday then I shall simply choose not to travel at all. Similarly, the spur-of-the-moment day trips I frequently take to Bath or Devon.

I can't believe that anyone would actually defend this change, which makes things very significantly worse for the passenger. I suppose this opens up a whole new area of split ticketing, though, to get around the restriction. So much for "simplification".

 

[TUC]

I'm struggling to see the issue with railcards not being valid before around 9:30. I'm sure most railcard journeys are likely to be for leisure purposes, and that will certainly be the case for the senior railcard. Realistically before 9am on weekdays the vast majority of journeys are commuting. And almost any train that is serving a commuter corridor in the peak direction will be busy, so it seems sensible to discourage leisure travel in those times.

You're making a big assumption that most railcard journeys are for leisure purposes. For those whose disability prevents them from driving, they will be using rail out of necessity, often incurring greater travel costs than would be the case by car.

Even for leisure journeys, disabled people incur additional costs. A visually impaired person travelling to n unfamiliar place will need someone to guide them, hence having twice the travel costs, which at least reduces to 1.5 x the cost with a railcard.

Those with a hospital appointment mid-morning will need to travel before 0930.

There are very good reasons for Disabled Persons Railcards continuing to be valid before 0930

 

[ChrisC]

Because sometimes it's good to be able to go on a longer journey and arrive before lunchtime.

Also if travelling long distances when going away on holiday, it’s good to be able to arrive before the evening. I’ve used my railcard in recent years to travel to various locations in Scotland including Aberdeen and Inverness where an early start has been preferable for a reasonable arrival time at my hotel. Setting off early morning from Nottingham the trains have been much quieter than they would be at 9.30am.

 

[Hadders]

when it comes to the commercial aspect of railcards there’s a wider issue to consider about what people travelling by train means for the general economy.

For example, let’s say the Network Railcard was abolished, resulting in a 50% increase in fares for leisure travel in the south east, would that mean fewer journeys are made? Would that result in less economic activity, eg fewer people eating and drinking in hospitality establishments, fewer sales in shops, fewer visits to sporting events etc.

 

[JonathanH]

There are very good reasons for Disabled Persons Railcards continuing to be valid before 0930

Indeed, and I think the DfT would almost certainly agree with that view.

One thing I have always felt a bit odd about the Senior Railcard is that its eligibility age wasn't increased with the State Pension Age. Separately, the restrictions in the South East introduced by British Rail are obviously felt to be revenue positive, as they have never been reversed, so you do wonder why they have not previously been extended nationwide.

For example, let’s say the Network Railcard was abolished, resulting in a 50% increase in fares for leisure travel in the south east, would that mean fewer journeys are made? Would that result in less economic activity, eg fewer people eating and drinking in hospitality establishments, fewer sales in shops, fewer visits to sporting events etc.

Personally, I think it would be marginal. If you need to get to an event you have to accept the travel costs. The desire to reach the activity outweighs the practicality of getting there. Some people might stay local for hospitality rather than travelling. Clearly, for people who simply travel for the 'sake of it', there may be a reduction in demand if the travel is less affordable, but equally someone can just travel a shorter distance. How much has the hike in fares with the withdrawal of super-off-peak tickets in the Contactless area affected travel? Probably not much.

As with any discount arrangement, it is nice while it lasts. One day it won't be available any more.

 

[Polarbear]

I’ve recently acquired a Senior Railcard, but not had a survey as yet.

Given some of the comments on how poor the survey seems to be laid out, my take is that it’s either a kite flying exercise, or a prelude to “consultation” on the matter prior to a predetermined decision being implemented.

I don’t make many journeys using my railcard before 09:30, but those where I do are typically longer journeys.

If a restriction was introduced though, I’d likely not make those journeys, and would seriously consider the value of buying further railcards. I’d use alternative options (I own a car & other options are available).

 

[yorksrob]

From the further out parts of the Network area isn’t the Senior Card still valid when Offpeak returns first become available, ie first train to arrive at London Terminal after 1000? I have used them from Eastleigh or Parkway well before 0930 in the past, although nowadays I’m rarely up early enough for it to matter...

I must admit, I wasn't aware of that.

I have recently renewed my railcard at my local station, which I got last year when I was 60

Didn't even realise there was a time restriction in one part of the country

Haven't been sent a survey, so don't know who the selected sub-set of railcard holders are. But presumably they want to distort the results in their favour so chose to exclude people in South West

That would be sneaky - I wouldn't put it past the industry, given history.

 

[kentrailman]

I have a three year railcard. Could they apply a new 930 restriction that came in during the validity of the railcard? Surely you can't change the rules after someone has paid for a product?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have a three year railcard. Could they apply a new 930 restriction that came in during the validity of the railcard? Surely you can't change the rules after someone has paid for a product?

No, and when they have done in the past existing holders have kept original terms to expiry.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I have a three year railcard. Could they apply a new 930 restriction that came in during the validity of the railcard? Surely you can't change the rules after someone has paid for a product?

Seems that they possibly can given that the Railcard terms and conditions say (at Clause 1.6 below) that "Train Companies may change the Railcard Conditions during the validity of your Railcard".

Railcard Terms & Conditions - Senior Railcard

www.senior-railcard.co.uk

 

[JonathanH]

No, and when they have done in the past existing holders have kept original terms to expiry.

It will depend on the terms and conditions. When the Network Railcard first gained its minimum fare, that only applied to cards bought after a particular date, but the terms and conditions now allow for certain changes to be implemented during the validity period of the railcard.

The Network Railcard terms and conditions now say "Train Companies may change the Railcard Conditions during the validity of your Railcard. Where possible, the Train Companies will communicate these to you by displaying information at stations at least three months prior to the change."

 

[Furryanimal]

I’ve just renewed my Senior Railcard and this time have splashed out on a three year one.
If I couldn’t use it before 0930 then it would be worthless.
I’ve made several cricket trips since the start of April which saw me boarding trains before 7a.m..
I have two more in the next week or so.
Travelling later would not have been possible.
This idea needs to be killed at birth.

 

[CyrusWuff]

It will depend on the terms and conditions. When the Network Railcard first gained its minimum fare, that only applied to cards bought after a particular date, but the terms and conditions now allow for certain changes to be implemented during the validity period of the railcard.

And during the changeover period, there were two different versions of the Network Railcard blank. Ones that took the new conditions had a red "R" in a circle on them.

 

[MikeWh]

Has the survey only been sent to people who bought their Senior Railcard from RDG?

I've bought both mine from the railcard website. Is it possible that they're not contacting people who already have a 0930 restriction?

 

[Haywain]

I've bought both mine from the railcard website. Is it possible that they're not contacting people who already have a 0930 restriction?

Nobody has a 0930 restriction by default, it depends on the ticketed journey being made what time restriction (if any) applies.

 

[TUC]

What will be important is that the current South East morning restrictions for products such as the Senior Railcard are not used as a model/justification for the rest of the country. As reflected in several comments above, travel to destinations such as London for key events can involve much earlier starts in the day elsewhere in the UK than for those in the South East, and so a similar restriction would have a disproportionately unfair effect.

 

[Gareth1990]

I doubt a time restriction will be applied, Pensioners always kick off when a benefit of theirs is reduced so like the bus pass this railcard is set in stone.

 

[81A]

It will depend on the terms and conditions. When the Network Railcard first gained its minimum fare, that only applied to cards bought after a particular date, but the terms and conditions now allow for certain changes to be implemented during the validity period of the railcard.

The Network Railcard terms and conditions now say "Train Companies may change the Railcard Conditions during the validity of your Railcard. Where possible, the Train Companies will communicate these to you by displaying information at stations at least three months prior to the change."

Indeed, it would easily be possible to 1; allow cardholders who purchased their cards under the current conditions to keep using them (under the current condition) until expiry, at which point they could choose to renew (under the new conditions) or not or 2; offer a full/partial refund to current cardholders who didn’t wish to retain their cards under the new conditions.

 

[Watershed]

An entirely unsurprising development - the industry is desperate to "simplify" ticketing and increase revenue. This ticks both boxes so it's exactly the kind of initiative I would expect to see.

Surveys such as this are generally mere formalities used to justify a decision that has already been reached.

Seems that they possibly can given that the Railcard terms and conditions say (at Clause 1.6 below) that "Train Companies may change the Railcard Conditions during the validity of your Railcard".

Railcard Terms & Conditions - Senior Railcard

www.senior-railcard.co.uk

It will depend on the terms and conditions. When the Network Railcard first gained its minimum fare, that only applied to cards bought after a particular date, but the terms and conditions now allow for certain changes to be implemented during the validity period of the railcard.

The Network Railcard terms and conditions now say "Train Companies may change the Railcard Conditions during the validity of your Railcard. Where possible, the Train Companies will communicate these to you by displaying information at stations at least three months prior to the change."

They may say that in the terms & conditions, but consumer law dictates that unfair terms are unenforceable. A term purporting to allow the trader to unilaterally change the key terms of the contract (e.g. by introducing a blanket time restriction) would represent such a significant change that it would likely be considered unfair.

Despite the many criticisms that can rightfully be made of the industry, past practice for e.g. the Network Railcard and NRCoT changes shows us that they do seem to recognise the principle that changes can't be retrospectively imposed on already-bought tickets or Railcards and that there is therefore a transitional period.

 

[yorksrob]

And during the changeover period, there were two different versions of the Network Railcard blank. Ones that took the new conditions had a red "R" in a circle on them.

They still have it !

 

[lyndhurst25]

When morning peak restriction were introduced for the Dales Railcard, the changes were applied to existing, as well as new, railcard holders. I seem to recall that if you complained about it then Northern offered to cancel and refund your existing railcard.

 

[JonathanH]

When morning peak restriction were introduced for the Dales Railcard, the changes were applied to existing, as well as new, railcard holders. I seem to recall that if you complained about it then Northern offered to cancel and refund your existing railcard.

Well yes, is the contractual value of the railcard the price paid for it, or the savings expected to be made from using it?

 

[Watershed]

Well yes, is the contractual value of the railcard the price paid for it, or the savings expected to be made from using it?

The damages claimable in the event of a breach of contract such as that would undoubtedly be the loss of savings, not just the pro-rated remaining cost of the Railcard.

 

[dk1]

I have a three year railcard. Could they apply a new 930 restriction that came in during the validity of the railcard? Surely you can't change the rules after someone has paid for a product?

No of course not. Those on pre-existing contracts will always be protected. Don’t worry mate.

 

[sheff1]

But no-one is stopping people from doing that. It's just that, if you are starting your longer journey during the morning rush hour, then you'll have to pay the same fare as all the people who aren't eligible for a railcard.

I regularly travel to Northern Scotland. Leaving after 0930 would mean an arrival after 1600 which is no good to me when I need to be there at least 2 hours earlier. Rather than paying £60/£70 extra to travel at the time I do now I would actually go late morning the day before and spend the £60/£70 on a hotel. Of course I would then likely be travelling out of Edinburgh during the evening rush hour when the trains are going to be much busier than the ones I currently start off on in the pre-0930 (non) rush hour.

No benefit to the railway but a benefit to the northern hotels.

Has the survey only been sent to people who bought their Senior Railcard from RDG?

I bought from the Railcard site and haven't had the survey.