Fined in the Merseyrail after cancellations?

[cfowler94]

Can anyone help me write a final appeal?

I was travelling from Hoylake to London but my original journey was disrupted/cancelled, so I was advised to travel via Chester instead. Trainline routed me using Merseyrail as part of the alternative journey.

Before boarding, I explained the full situation to the member of staff at the barrier and she manually let me through despite me not having a separate ticket for that section. I then got issued a penalty fare onboard, which completely surprised me because I had specifically checked with staff first and wouldn’t have travelled otherwise.

I’ve already appealed twice and both were rejected. I argued that under NRCoT 28.2/28.3 I was entitled to take an alternative route because of disruption, and also that I relied on explicit permission from staff to travel.

I’ve attached the rejection letters/posts and my ticket/itinerary. I’m now at the final appeal stage and would really appreciate help wording it properly.

I don’t have a photo of the ticket but the ticket police took one that’s attached to the appeal. I’ve attached the Trainline one - thanks so much in advance

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2026 ==

Sorry put the same one twice

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2026 ==

By the way. This was when all lines were down in Liverpool so there was literally no way to travel.

 

[Watershed]

The ticket(s) you held would be highly relevant - please attach a copy of your Trainline booking confirmation email (with reference numbers etc. redacted) and/or any other details you can see in your account.

It is entirely possible that your ticket was already valid on the route you took.

 

[cfowler94]

Trainline booking confirmation email attached

 

[gray1404]

So your Advance ticket was routed AWC & Connections. Were Avanti advising customers to travel via Chester?

 

[cfowler94]

So your Advance ticket was routed AWC & Connections. Were Avanti advising customers to travel via Chester?

Yes, but me not being a huge trail traveller I just took the merseyrail which was the next train. I asked the staff permission from merseyrail and she said ok fine and let me through the barrier manually.

 

[Trainman40083]

Avanti West Coast advised earlier from Liverpool. On their Twitter page...

 

[tram21]

Avanti West Coast advised earlier from Liverpool. On their Twitter page...

This occurred on 14th April. So we'd need to know if this was the case then, not today.

 

[30907]

Yes, but me not being a huge trail traveller I just took the merseyrail which was the next train. I asked the staff permission from merseyrail and she said ok fine and let me through the barrier manually.

Sorry, just to clarify: was this at Lime Street (Merseyrail platform) after you had gone up to the main station?

 

[cfowler94]

Sorry, just to clarify: was this at Lime Street (Merseyrail platform) after you had gone up to the main station?

Yes

 

[AlterEgo]

And who advised you to travel via Chester? A member of staff or did you see the train company suggested this advice in a notice or email?

 

[cfowler94]

And who advised you to travel via Chester? A member of staff or did you see the train company suggested this advice in a notice or email?

An Avanti staff member

 

[SuspectUsual]

I’ve just gone back through Twitter/X and unfortunately Avanti delete all their advice during disruption once its resolved. If you go back as far as 14 April going through their replies, you can see a couple of threads where they’re replying to someone in Liverpool who had in turn replied to one of their deleted tweets. So it’s clear they said *something* but not what

 

[furlong]

Lots of things to dig into here.

Firstly the timeline. Appeal on 14th April? Decision on 7th May? That's more than 21 days so the penalty is no longer payable - though the full fare remains recoverable. How much was that for the short journey segment concerned?

Secondly the request for a description of the staff member got this backwards. If using 6(2)(d), under 16(4) it is for the train operator to disprove the assertion that permission was given, not for the passenger to be asked for more information. Clearly, should it wish to contest the appeal, the train company is in a position to identify the staff who were on duty at the time and location concerned and obtain a statement from them. So again, the appeals process is not compliant with the regulations and consequently the train company is unable to impose any penalty fares.

(I've not looked into the ticket/delays.)

Please upload a copy of the full Penalty Fare (covering personal details etc.) with all the accompanying text so people can check if it's in breach of any other rules.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Ah, here’s something and I’m afraid its not good news for the OP, notwithstanding the issue around being given permission

(Screenshot from Twitter/X from 14 April on the National Rail account saying Avanti are advising they have ticket acceptance with TfW to Chester, but no mention of Merseyrail)

 

[furlong]

So two or more trains were affected, but the estimated delay was only 30 minutes? What was the estimated delay to your London arrival time that you were told at the time? If it was less than an hour, that cuts out some of the common entitlements (TSA Obligation to Carry, PRO etc.). (Someone needs to look up what actually happened - cancellation vs delay etc. to confirm it was less than an hour, and then assess the details against the entitlements)

If the ticket was AWC & Connections, it had validity on Merseyrail as a train operator and so the appeal letter has got that wrong.

 

[gray1404]

An Avanti staff member

This is the first you have mentioned of this. Initially you said that your train line app advised you to travel via Chester. Then you said permission was given by the Merseyrail staff member.

It would be really helpful if you would talk us through exactly what happened once you arrived at Liverpool Lime Street. Also can you upload a copy of your actual e ticket rather than the booking confirmation as it does not contain all the information we require.

 

[cfowler94]

So two or more trains were affected, but the estimated delay was only 30 minutes? What was the estimated delay to your London arrival time that you were told at the time? If it was less than an hour, that cuts out some of the common entitlements (TSA Obligation to Carry, PRO etc.). (Someone needs to look up what actually happened - cancellation vs delay etc. to confirm it was less than an hour, and then assess the details against the entitlements)

If the ticket was AWC & Connections, it had validity on Merseyrail as a train operator and so the appeal letter has got that wrong.

All trains had bee cancelled as far as I could see. I’m not sure what time they resumed but it was over an hour.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2026 ==

This is the first you have mentioned of this. Initially you said that your train line app advised you to travel via Chester. Then you said permission was given by the Merseyrail staff member.

It would be really helpful if you would talk us through exactly what happened once you arrived at Liverpool Lime Street. Also can you upload a copy of your actual e ticket rather than the booking confirmation as it does not contain all the information we require.

Got up to lime street
Saw all trains cancelled
Asked member of staff
Checked app
Went to barrier asked staff member
They said ok
Hopped on train
Fined

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2026 ==

This is the first you have mentioned of this. Initially you said that your train line app advised you to travel via Chester. Then you said permission was given by the Merseyrail staff member.

It would be really helpful if you would talk us through exactly what happened once you arrived at Liverpool Lime Street. Also can you upload a copy of your actual e ticket rather than the booking confirmation as it does not contain all the information we require.

here’s pictures from the appeal

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2026 ==

Lots of things to dig into here.

Firstly the timeline. Appeal on 14th April? Decision on 7th May? That's more than 21 days so the penalty is no longer payable - though the full fare remains recoverable. How much was that for the short journey segment concerned?

Secondly the request for a description of the staff member got this backwards. If using 6(2)(d), under 16(4) it is for the train operator to disprove the assertion that permission was given, not for the passenger to be asked for more information. Clearly, should it wish to contest the appeal, the train company is in a position to identify the staff who were on duty at the time and location concerned and obtain a statement from them. So again, the appeals process is not compliant with the regulations and consequently the train company is unable to impose any penalty fares.

(I've not looked into the ticket/delays.)

Please upload a copy of the full Penalty Fare (covering personal details etc.) with all the accompanying text so people can check if it's in breach of any other rules.

 

[SuspectUsual]

You should delete the images that show your name, then upload new ones with your name obscured

 

[mmh]

When you made your appeal may be important here, as @furlong has said - if they took more than 21 days then the penalty fare is not valid.

 

[cfowler94]

All trains had bee cancelled as far as I could see. I’m not sure what time they resumed but it was over an hour.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2026 ==


Got up to lime street
Saw all trains cancelled
Asked member of staff
Checked app
Went to barrier asked staff member
They said ok
Hopped on train
Fined

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2026 ==


here’s pictures from the appeal

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2026 ==

All trains had bee cancelled as far as I could see. I’m not sure what time they resumed but it was over an hour.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2026 ==


Got up to lime street
Saw all trains cancelled
Asked member of staff
Checked app
Went to barrier asked staff member
They said ok
Hopped on train
Fined

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2026 ==


here’s pictures from the appeal

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2026 ==

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2026 ==

When you made your appeal may be important here, as @furlong has said - if they took more than 21 days then the penalty fare is not valid.

 

[mmh]

Right, so their decision on 7 May was more than 21 days after the appeal was made, so it's not valid.

"11A) If an appeal is against a penalty fare calculated in accordance with regulation 9(1A) or (4A), where the relevant Appeal Panel—

(a)notifies the operator that an appeal has been allowed; or

(b)fails to adhere to the time period specified in paragraph 6 of schedule 2, the appellant is not liable to pay the penalty fare in question and is only liable to pay the full single fare applicable for their journey."

 

[AlterEgo]

Right, so their decision on 7 May was more than 21 days after the appeal was made, so it's not valid.

"11A) If an appeal is against a penalty fare calculated in accordance with regulation 9(1A) or (4A), where the relevant Appeal Panel—

(a)notifies the operator that an appeal has been allowed; or

(b)fails to adhere to the time period specified in paragraph 6 of schedule 2, the appellant is not liable to pay the penalty fare in question and is only liable to pay the full single fare applicable for their journey."

I'm a bit lost here. Where has the OP said what date they made their first appeal?

 

[mmh]

I'm a bit lost here. Where has the OP said what date they made their first appeal?

In the second image on post #19

 

[gray1404]

I fear this is going to be a difficult person to help. They are not providing the information we are asking for no are they giving us a complete account of what happened. It is brief replies and we need to be able to help. We are yet to see the penalty fare notice and the ticket. We also do not know what happened exactly at Lime Street. It's also appears they did not get back in touch with the appeals body to provide a detailed description of the Merseyrail staff member they say they encountered.

 

[Djgr]

Fundamentally I think that this has resulted from miscommunication.

There is a good chance that someone from Hoylake would be unaware that direct trains to Chester now run from the high level platforms at Lime Street, as well as the Merseyrail ones.

That said, when everything collapses between Liverpool to Crewe, it has always been usual practice that passengers are sent via Merseyrail to Chester and thence Crewe. Not least because this service operates 4 times an hour as opposed to 1 an hour by the TfW.

If this was me, I would kick back.

 

[Haywain]

Where has the OP said what date they made their first appeal?

I think it's based on the date of one of the letters attached to the first post. However, it doesn't state when the appeal was submitted and there's a second letter, undated, asking for further information which doesn't help with understanding the sequence and timeline of events.

Post #20 contains a screenshot which suggests that the initial appeal was opened on 14th April but considered as incomplete and closed on 23rd April. When further information was received on 6th May it appears it was opened and treated as a the first appeal from that date, and rejected on 7th May as indicated by the earlier letter. The second appeal was opened on 11th May and then rejected on 28th May, again indicated by the date of a letter on the first post. I treat that as the second appeal because there is a reference to re-appealing at the end of the attachment, which can only refer to a third appeal.

 

[cfowler94]

I fear this is going to be a difficult person to help. They are not providing the information we are asking for no are they giving us a complete account of what happened. It is brief replies and we need to be able to help. We are yet to see the penalty fare notice and the ticket. We also do not know what happened exactly at Lime Street. It's also appears they did not get back in touch with the appeals body to provide a detailed description of the Merseyrail staff member they say they encountered.

Yeah thanks I’ve provided all the information I have, the ticket and the details I have to the penalty fare.

I don’t know how much more I can go into detail. The trains were cancelled, I got told to go to Chester, I looked on Trainline for the next train, followed Trainline to merseyrail. Asked the staff, boarded the train and got fine. There’s no more to it. Idk what more I can give as you can see I’ve attached the ticket bro

 

[SuspectUsual]

I don’t know how much more I can go into detail. The trains were cancelled, I got told to go to Chester, I looked on Trainline for the next train, followed Trainline to merseyrail. Asked the staff, boarded the train and got fine. There’s no more to it. Idk what more I can give as you can see I’ve attached the ticket bro

Did the person who told you to go to Chester see your ticket?

Did they tell you which train to get to Chester or not specify?

 

[cfowler94]

They did not specify. They just said to go via Chester, which is why I checked the Trainline app for the next train.

The woman at the merseyrail barrier also did not check my ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They did not specify. They just said to go via Chester, which is why I checked the Trainline app for the next train.

The woman at the merseyrail barrier also did not check my ticket.

Didn't check it as in didn't even look at it? That's different from what you've said previously.