I've seen multiple videos on TikTok of people with authority on the railway talking about how some train enthusiasts are getting T-keys and other keys off of various sources and using them to commit illegal activities on the railway including breaking into cabs. This could possibly lead to Network Rail banning train enthusiasts from their properties. What could be done to stop this?
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People obtaining railway keys and breaking into cabs
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andy33gmail
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It is of course daft that train cabs and planes are locked less securely than cars and houses. There’s no genuine justification from a practicability standpoint; fleets of vans manage to use proper keys for example
A practical response might be to make it an offence to carry such a key within railway property without authorisation?
A practical response might be to make it an offence to carry such a key within railway property without authorisation?
Tetragon213
Member
Imo it would make sense to phase out carriage keys.
I'm fairly certain you can turn the lock with nothing more than an adequetly sized flathead, so the old square peg may need to go sooner rather than later.
Perhaps it's time to move to the BR1 key in the interim?
I'm fairly certain you can turn the lock with nothing more than an adequetly sized flathead, so the old square peg may need to go sooner rather than later.
Perhaps it's time to move to the BR1 key in the interim?
It's certainly not practical, how do you define what a train enthusiast is? What if they're a paying passenger who happens to be a (sane) enthusiast? I know a lot of staff are railway enthusiasts, you should see how many of them get their cameras out when a charter comes through... I've even seen managers do it.
zwk500
Veteran Member
On at least 1 website the BR1 key is offered for sale at a cheaper price than the T-Key.
That website does say they will verify your need to purchase the key with your railway organisation, but it still seems relatively easy for people to get access to a key 2nd or 3rd hand if they wanted to.
There has been a mysterious key in my gateline's station control unit (SCU) for months now and I've always wondered what it is. Apparently it's a BR1 key! I still have no idea what it's for, but now I know what it is.
1D54
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Slightly different but there was a guy at Stafford a few years ago who had an Network Rail hi-vis top and had used it to go to places he has no business going to meaning trespassing on railway premises rather than trying to get free trips. Easily obtainable i suppose but probably through theft or knowing someone who works in the industry.
T-keys have many legitimate uses outside of the railway, so banning them would be impossible.
Or just got one printed up themselves. There are plenty of images of Network Rail hi-vis around, and plenty of companies who will print whatever logos you like on to hi-vis.
It's not unknown for railway uniform to be found on Vinted or eBay either.
Or somehow on the other side of the country. I was at a surplus shop in Cornwall (more industrial than the typical charity shop) and was perusing the racks of uniforms. A number of rail or rail-adjacent ones in there. I specifically remember "Tube Lines" overalls.
I don’t work for the railway, but I legitimately carry two BR1 keys with me every time I commute to work. One is on my lanyard and clearly visible.
So where would I stand on this hypothetical ban?
zwk500
Veteran Member
Presumably, the law would recognise your employer as an appropriate authoriser.
However, a legislative ban on holding railway keys improperly is pointless for reasons pointed out upthread about its inability to be enforced, and for the fact that improperly accessing a cab can already be dealt with as endangering passengers on the railway, or obstructing the railway, or trespass.
Actually prosecuting people for it, though, does seem quite rare. I can find several news articles about arrests or appeals for information about cab incidents, but none returned anybody actually being convicted for it. I think there was somebody in London who ended up in court for a series of videos of them trespassing, some of which involved them being in train cabs, but can't remember the details.
bunnahabhain
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I caught one in the middle cab on a 15x once having gone to make a PA following a short delay at a station. The guy was quivering like a whippet crimping one out. I questioned him and took his details, confiscated his home made carriage key, and passed it over to BTP who I believe visited him as well, I don't know where it went after that.
Given that a good percentage of them would probably want a job in the industry it seems a ridiculous thing to break into a cab and jeopardise your chances of future employment.
If they really wanted to see inside the cab then they should just have a friendly chat with the driver or guard. I've seen a guard invite a young child into the rear cab of a moving train once, which I imagine was quite an experience for them.
Kite159
Veteran Member
Would be easier to ban TikTok 
318266
Member
After all, it is a matter of national security (of likely more credibility than that of Ardersier!)Would be easier to ban TikTok
furnessvale
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Such activity has always occurred. I have known "bashers" enter loco cabs and smash instruments so a preferred loco was the only one available for a particular service.
Just out of interest what would you need a BR1 key for if you don’t work on the railway?
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
Manchester Metrolink, presumably some other tram operators too.
martin butler
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One way would be to ask anyone suspected of trespassing for their Network rail PTS card, or I.D card first, after all any person with a legitimate reason to go into a cab, would also be in possession of an PTS card, even depot staff would need PTS.
Cheers. Though to be fair, Metrolink do work on the railway.
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Station turnaround cleaners don't have PTS and have a legitimate reason to enter cabs.
Not to mention drivers and guards at my TOC don't get issued PTS cards either...
martin butler
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But they would though have ID, I'm very surprised though that train staff, at your TOC, don't have PTS, what happens if you have to evacuate a train, and have to escort passengers to a place of safety?
That still wouldn't really work as holding a PTS or any other ID other than a valid cab pass does not entitle them to enter a cab either. Only cab passes allow that.
D365
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Let’s say, for example, that I am a contract fitter, contract engineer, whatever. I’m travelling via train from my home location to a vehicle depot. I could be working on passenger units, be working on locomotives or something different altogether.
I know that I will need a T key and a BR1 key whenever I am working on ex British Rail vehicles. Perhaps even some additional keys for guard panels and the like. So I bring these with me in my depot toolbag.
Are you telling me that I should need to seek specific authorisation from my point of contact every time that I set foot on the operational railway with my set of keys?
Quite right. Note however my point above. A fitter or engineer would not necessarily have a cab pass either but would have legitimate grounds for carrying their keys.
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Not specific to the railways.
I discovered a subsection of a certain social media platform dedicated to 'lift surfing' - they'll buy lift/elevator keys online, chuck them into service mode, climb up onto the service area on top of the lift and just ride it up and down.
I once worked in an office where two people had left and nobody had the key for their pedestal drawers. Estates/facilities said it would take them a month to get replacement keys. We kinda needed the drawers for the two people who replaced the ones who left though. For about £4 online I got the master key for all the office drawers (it was cheaper than buying the two specific keys).
Volunteering with another group we got donated some equipment which required a 'TOK1' or 'T0K1' key, I forget which. Ordered the TOK set of keys. Turns out, those keys also unlocked the security barrier to my work's car park, which was actually a sensitive working environment.
There's groups like Extinction Rebellion who bought display board/advertising board keys to replace posters. People who steal from vending machines with master keys, alarms, fire brigade equipment/access, forklifts, postboxes - all obtainable dead easy.
Obviously you expect things like train cab doors to be more difficult to obtain keys for than security barriers or lifts, but there's only so much you can do to protect keys when you use the same key/lock in literally thousands of places.
I discovered a subsection of a certain social media platform dedicated to 'lift surfing' - they'll buy lift/elevator keys online, chuck them into service mode, climb up onto the service area on top of the lift and just ride it up and down.
I once worked in an office where two people had left and nobody had the key for their pedestal drawers. Estates/facilities said it would take them a month to get replacement keys. We kinda needed the drawers for the two people who replaced the ones who left though. For about £4 online I got the master key for all the office drawers (it was cheaper than buying the two specific keys).
Volunteering with another group we got donated some equipment which required a 'TOK1' or 'T0K1' key, I forget which. Ordered the TOK set of keys. Turns out, those keys also unlocked the security barrier to my work's car park, which was actually a sensitive working environment.
There's groups like Extinction Rebellion who bought display board/advertising board keys to replace posters. People who steal from vending machines with master keys, alarms, fire brigade equipment/access, forklifts, postboxes - all obtainable dead easy.
Obviously you expect things like train cab doors to be more difficult to obtain keys for than security barriers or lifts, but there's only so much you can do to protect keys when you use the same key/lock in literally thousands of places.
They hold PTS competency, but specific cards are not issued.
Only in a very, very small area and under very specific circumstances.
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