Why can't EMR trains cope with heat? (25 & 26 May)

[tram21]

Yesterday and today EMR has seen widespread disruption and cancellations across the network as many trains have developed faults. The cancellations seem to be comparatively worse than the majority of other operators- they have generally been affected by infrastructure issues but not train unit issues.

Why are the EMR train units so unresilient to extreme temperatures? Are units without working air-con being withdrawn from service, and that's the majority of the issues? But then why is the aircon comparatively so unreliable to other TOCs that operate the same or similar classes of trains?

The worst affected is EMR Intercity. I would hope/ assume that these issues are with the Class 222s. But these units aren't that old! And these temperatures aren't that extreme!

 

[westcoaster]

I saw a post about a waterfall (water coming from the ceiling) of a class 810 yesterday.

Also the class 360 are notorious for failing aircon in medium to high heat.

Just looking at departures for EMR connect, and it's imploded; maybe only a couple of active diagrams at this moment.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I saw a post about a waterfall (water coming from the ceiling) of a class 810 yesterday.
Also the class 360 are notorious for failling aircon in medium to high heat.
Just looking at departures for EMR connect and it's imploded maybe only a couple of active diagrams at this moment.

Wellingborough departure screens for one cancelled train shows 'due to more trains than the usual requiring repair at the same time. Hmmmm....

What's the ratio of diagrams to units? I thought it was pretty undemanding. And there's newly refurbished 360107 still sitting in the sun at Kettering with its pan up but not still re-entered service.

There's a lot of focus on 810 and 222 shortcoming but 360 failures for similar reasons - including 'problem with the doors' - of which there seem to me to be as many, slip 'under the radar'.

 

[38Cto15E]

Perhaps that is why the Meridians are being sent to Scotland, A/C will not be required so much up there.

 

[nineteenninety]

It's the same with the MK4's with LNER & TFW, they get temporarily withdrawn when hot weather is forecast. The AC systems on them are notorious for failing in the heat.

 

[NSE]

I have no idea about the 222’s but I endured Clapham - Exeter and return over the Bank Holiday weekend without any working air con. I overheard the guard saying the air con on the diesel fleet suffers in the heat. No idea if that’s a diesel unit issue (which might explain why the 222’s are suffering), a Sprinter family issue or just an age thing.

 

[amahy]

It's the same with the MK4's with LNER & TFW, they get temporarily withdrawn when hot weather is forecast. The AC systems on them are notorious for failing in the heat.

And in TfW's case, use short formed 2 car 197s with failed air-con anyway instead!

 

[matthenj]

It's an interesting one - but you've got to wonder how this is still a problem in this day and age: Nearly every car on the road has an aircon system that will maintain a comfortable cabin even when the desired temperature delta is 20+ degrees, with the Solar gain of the massive windscreen. Buildings have heat pumps that will maintain 19 C across 1000s of square feet.

Why is it so difficult to achieve this on a train? Is it because the systems end up so compromised, so they fit into stupidly small spaces? Or is it cost cutting when speccing the trains? Or is it that smaller/commuter trains don't have vestibules, which makes maintaining the cabin climate completely unrealistic?

I'd imagine that the passengers would accept some level of performance reduction, if 30 kW/Coach was being directed into the A/C, so they were comfortable...

 

[westcoaster]

Wellingborough departure screens for one cancelled train shows 'due to more trains than the usual requiring repair at the same time. Hmmmm....

What's the ratio of diagrams to units? I thought it was pretty undemanding. And there's newly refurbished 360107 still sitting in the sun at Kettering with its pan up but not still re-entered service.

There's a lot of focus on 810 and 222 shortcoming but 360 failures for similar reasons - including 'problem with the doors' - of which there seem to me to be as many, slip 'under the radar'.

6 diagrams of 8 cars.

So it's 12 units out of 21 needed mon-fri.

 

[Scott W]

Regional looks to be badly impacted today, a quick glance suggests only a couple of services made it from Nottingham to Liverpool after lunchtime.

 

[LowLevel]

It's not just the air con. Really poor timing but the air is full of seed fluff. Particularly on the 170s it's being drawn into the radiators reducing their effectiveness and causing the engines to overheat, shut down and the engine management system to lock out and that then stresses the remaining engine(s) which at it's worst causes in traffic failure of the train.

The 158s have managed comparatively well this time round.

That's not to say there haven't been air con issues because there have and plenty of them, but it's not solely that.

It's no secret that both 360s and 222s are extremely tired and that includes auxiliaries like the air con.

 

[mtmikethom]

Regional looks to be badly impacted today, a quick glance suggests only a couple of services made it from Nottingham to Liverpool after lunchtime.

Not helped the problems they have suffered between Ely & Brandon the past three days, beats me why late running Norwich bound services don’t reverse more often at Ely if they are over 30 mins late rather then suffer a delay on the return from Norwich if they have Nottingham crews, seems to be hit & miss oh and problems around Whittlesea yesterday

 

[tram21]

It's not just the air con. Really poor timing but the air is full of seed fluff. Particularly on the 170s it's being drawn into the radiators reducing their effectiveness and causing the engines to overheat, shut down and the engine management system to lock out and that then stresses the remaining engine(s) which at it's worst causes in traffic failure of the train.

The 158s have managed comparatively well this time round.

That's not to say there haven't been air con issues because there have and plenty of them, but it's not solely that.

It's no secret that both 360s and 222s are extremely tired and that includes auxiliaries like the air con.

Thank you for the insight, that's really interesting.

 

[High Dyke]

Not helped today by "signalling problems" between Grantham and Nottingham. My train, already 11 minutes late, departing Grantham, was about 40 minutes late arriving at Nottingham.

 

[liamf656]

Not helped today by "signalling problems" between Grantham and Nottingham. My train, already 11 minutes late, departing Grantham, was about 40 minutes late arriving at Nottingham.

And various speed restrictions, signalling issues and a tree on the overheads between London and Trent Junction throughout yesterday and today

 

[londonmidland]

EMR have now put out a notice of disruption up until Saturday the 30th, due to heat related incidents.

Due to extreme heat across the UK, EMR services may be subject to delays, cancellations and short-notice alterations up to Sat 30 May. High temperatures are impacting both trains and infrastructure across the network. Please check before you travel.

 

[XFeed]

Unfortunately 175s have also been a victim of cooling systems heat related issues at times.

 

[M60lad]

Was it yesterday or Monday that a unit on Crewe-Derby service broke down on route somewhere near Uttoxeter causing problems on that line for quite a while? Not to sure which unit it was though.

 

[08221]

There has been severe disruption over the North Staffordshire line for the last 2 afternoons.

On Monday, I got caught up in it - the 1449 and 1549 over the North Staffordshire line from Stoke to Derby were cancelled and replaced by a bus that left Stoke at 1550. It ran direct to Uttoxeter (where I got off) missing out Longton and Blythe Bridge completely - I felt for any passengers waiting in the heat at those stations. From what I have heard, Foxfield railway volunteers assisted with the recovery of the unit that initially failed in a difficult location.

On Tuesday afternoon, there were multiple cancellations to services again.

 

[TUC]

If a train has air con which can't deal with heat, the competence of their design must seriously be questioned.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

If a train has air con which can't deal with heat, the competence of their design must seriously be questioned.

Or was designed in the 1980’s such as on 158’s

 

[Banham7]

The Regional fleet was very badly affected on the 25th May by the heat. I've scraped through the data and found roughly 14 170s either failed or terminated short as a result of a train fault and did not return to service that day. These were: 170201, 170203, 170272, 170273, 170416, 170418, 170424, 170505, 170506, 170509, 170511, 170512, 170515 and 170530.

The Barton Line pretty much had no service from the afternoon onwards as a result of two unit failures and The Joint Line had a 4 hour service gap in the evening, so fair to say it was quite bad!

 

[Andy Pacer]

The Regional fleet was very badly affected on the 25th May by the heat. I've scraped through the data and found roughly 14 170s either failed or terminated short as a result of a train fault and did not return to service that day. These were: 170201, 170203, 170272, 170273, 170416, 170418, 170424, 170505, 170506, 170509, 170511, 170512, 170515 and 170530.

The Barton Line pretty much had no service from the afternoon onwards as a result of two unit failures and The Joint Line had a 4 hour service gap in the evening, so fair to say it was quite bad!

The Ivanhoe line had no trains for almost 6 hours.

 

[TUC]

Or was designed in the 1980’s such as on 158’s

It seems from the above that 158s managed OK. As with multiple other issues, it is more recent trains where problems arise.

 

[LowLevel]

It seems from the above that 158s managed OK. As with multiple other issues, it is more recent trains where problems arise.

More that you can open the windows and they had less engine problems.

 

[Krokodil]

It's the same with the MK4's with LNER & TFW, they get temporarily withdrawn when hot weather is forecast.

Do they? It's forecast to be 30 degrees in Cardiff today and there are three Mk4 sets out.

The AC systems on them are notorious for failing in the heat.

Far less notorious than the 197s. 158s only get away with things because they have hopper windows to provide emergency (i.e. all summer) ventilation

 

[Trainfan2019]

I was caught up in the heat delays yesterday at Crewe too. With the failing 170s in the heat recently, how were they when new to passenger service. Has it got worse as the years have gone on?

 

[Merle Haggard]

6 diagrams of 8 cars.

So it's 12 units out of 21 needed mon-fri.

Thanks.
Sounds pretty undemanding to me, even RfDs 47s managed to beat that...
The LNw services via Northampton are rarely cancelled because of Cl 350 problems, wonder what's the reason for the 360s poor performance.
And, if there's a shortage because of extra units under maintenance (as given on the departure screen) reducing services to 4 car would, in the extreme, only require 6 units out of 21 to be working. Well, 20 admittedly, because 360107 is on holiday in Kettering.

 

[TUC]

More that you can open the windows and they had less engine problems.

I do think many passengers would far prefer windows they can open. They're under their control and far less susceptible to breakdown.

 

[LowLevel]

I do think many passengers would far prefer windows they can open. They're under their control and far less susceptible to breakdown.

I agree to an extent - provided the train is moving. It's when it stops for any protracted period that the problems start.