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London Overground Unbelievable amount of cancellations

philthetube

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The Underground operates without overtime for drivers and seem to avoid most of these problems.

They also monitor sickness closely and,(certainly when I was there) look for patterns in sickness.
 
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SynthD

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Someone has to take responsibility for not having at least alternate trains scheduled to be worked by staff on normal contracted hours.
It seems like most depots don’t have any drivers with normal contracted hours on Sundays. Blame the Victorians.
 

whoosh

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So depot establishments aren't sufficient to cover the timetable?
You are right in thinking that they should be!

As this has been a problem only these last few days, and that (maybe not!) coincidentally those days happen to be a bank holiday weekend at the start of school holidays with very nice weather, then the notion that there are perhaps unfilled vacancies may be something worth looking into.

It may be something that is already on the radar of the management, and that a process of recruitment is taking place. This does take quite some time to plan and deliver.

Going back a few years, and acknowledging that it was elsewhere on the railway:
When First Capital Connect's franchise came to an end and GTR's management contract started - there was a large deficit of drivers. It has been alleged that it was cheaper for FCC to end their franchise with a deficit (despite penalty payments) than hand it back fully resourced.

I can remember a Tuesday in the week leading up to Christmas (something like the 22nd or 23rd December, so in the school holidays) Kings Cross, which was a larger traincrew depot at the time, having  seventeen uncovered duties out of around forty.

So maybe a question to be asking is, "Has something similar happened what with Arriva finishing their management contract with TfL and First starting the new one to run London Overground at the start of this month?"

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It seems like most depots don’t have any drivers with normal contracted hours on Sundays. Blame the Victorians.
London Overground do have normal contracted hours on Sundays (they are part of the working week).
 
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Sonic1234

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Croydon
Can you buy Advance tickets including LO for longer journeys? I think I've seen this on the Windrush Line but not sure about elsewhere. One positive of National Rail services is they are better connected to the rest of the network. Yes, LO is National Rail but believes it isn't. Paper ticketing (yes rare, but has it's uses) is better on NR.

I do wonder how much longer the TfL fare scale/NR scale split will exist for. It moved closer together this Spring with the NR fare freeze. I can see a time where everything is moved to the higher NR fare scale, possibly with the removal of mixed-mode for Zone 1 journeys as a sweetner. Probably would be one of the easiest ways for TfL to increase revenue - how many people know what their journeys cost, tap the magic card and off you go. Not saying I wan't this to happen though.

I appreciate some people value staffed stations, but either this means surly gateline assistants (TfL have some of the worst, try breaking a journey) or someone sat bored behind a piece of glass adding little obvious value - at Penge West there's a sign saying they can't even sell a ticket, and the LO stations that do ticket sales are selling as little as 1 a week according to Diamond Geezer. Most people would probably say Penge West, Anerley, Wandsworth Road, Clapham High Street are unstaffed.

2 tph (or even lower) is poor in an urban area. LO would uplift this, does LO ever go below 4 tph?
 

andy33gmail

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I don't think that. I want TfL to take over services in South London so we pay the same fares as across the river.
You certainly feel the effect on the lines where you can buy a TfL fayre or a real fayre - e.g. Broxborne-Tottenham £7.70 single, £10.50 return (i.e. cap) (I think) vs £10.70 single, £18.30 return)
 

talldave

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If TfL are to run more lines, it should be compulsory that they refer to trsin departure times. I hate their station displays that obfuscate which train is which. It's totally unecessary.
 

43096

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But unfortunately those that can’t get leave just go sick. (and they don’t leave a trail having leave declined).
Sack ‘em/discipline them some will say. That will make the problem worse as goodwill to do favours disappears.
That goodwill clearly doesn't exist anyway if they're calling in sick when not sick.
 

Class15

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North London or Mildmay line
The North London Line's performance and reliability is in general very poor, due to the freight situation. Therefore if any other issues are layered on it all goes massively bottoms up.
The freight runs all the time, not just this week.

The cancellations, on this scale without an obvious infrastructure problem (the Hackney fire didn’t last nearly the whole time), have only happened this week.

Fingers should perhaps be pointed at First who have just taken over the concession from Arriva, who were always very good with staffing. They have a contract to run the service, and in the last week they haven’t.
 

158756

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Today TfL are reporting the service between Clapham Junction and Willesden Junction is suspended "due to train cancellations". Looking at RTT this doesn't appear to be strictly true, but there are 5 consecutive trains missing on the Clapham Jn- Stratford circuit.

Last night, of 21 Mildmay services scheduled to depart Stratford after 9pm, only 7 ran. Were there any other reasons for disruption, or do they really only have enough drivers to cover 1/3 of the evening service?
 

Tetchytyke

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Isle of Man
Fingers should perhaps be pointed at First who have just taken over the concession from Arriva
I’m wondering whether fingers should be pointed at Arriva? Wouldn’t be the first outgoing concessionaire to metaphorically stitch prawns in the curtains.
 

Bigfoot

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Overtime is cheap. That is the thing. For NHS doctors (the one area I do know about) double time for overtime is actually cheaper than extra staff.
The majority of TOCs don't offer double time, there'd be a much higher take up of overtime if they did.
Going back a few years, and acknowledging that it was elsewhere on the railway:
When First Capital Connect's franchise came to an end and GTR's management contract started - there was a large deficit of drivers. It has been alleged that it was cheaper for FCC to end their franchise with a deficit (despite penalty payments) than hand it back fully resourced.

I can remember a Tuesday in the week leading up to Christmas (something like the 22nd or 23rd December, so in the school holidays) Kings Cross, which was a larger traincrew depot at the time, having  seventeen uncovered duties out of around forty.

So maybe a question to be asking is, "Has something similar happened what with Arriva finishing their management contract with TfL and First starting the new one to run London Overground at the start of this month?"
It's been documented since that when first group handed back SWR they were very short of drivers.
 

greatkingrat

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20 Jan 2011
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One issue is the new WLL shuttles which require an extra 4 diagrams. There will be trainees passing out in the not too distant future but they are not there yet. Rumours are that the shuttles attract higher penalties for cancellation, which is why the shuttles are running and the Stratfords cancelled, when logically the shuttle diagrams should be the first to be cancelled.

The other issue is the complete inability to plan an emergency timetable. The logic appears to be that if diagram A is not covered between 5pm and 7pm, while diagram B is not covered between 8pm and 10pm, they just cancel both diagrams, even though there are more than enough drivers to run at least one of them. I think you would all be shocked if you knew how many drivers were sitting in messrooms last week twiddling their thumbs because their trains were cancelled!
 
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NeakPed

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One issue is the new WLL shuttles which require an extra 4 diagrams. There will br trainees passing out in the not too distant future but they are not there yet. Rumours are that the shuttles attract higher penalties for cancellation, which is why the shuttles are running and the Stratfords cancelled, when logically the shuttle diagrams should be the first to be cancelled.

The other issue is the complete inability to plan an emergency timetable. The logic appears to be that if diagram A is not covered between 5pm and 7pm, while diagram B is not covered between 8pm and 10pm, they just cancel both diagrams, even though there are more than enough drivers to run at least one of them. I think you would all be shocked if you knew how many drivers were sitting in messrooms last week twiddling their thumbs because their trains were cancelled!
The problem is that the ‘train crew supervisor‘(or whatever term is used) declares the jobs are uncovered and passes it onto Control to deal with. When Control push back & ask about spare cover, they get told no one is available, for whatever reason. Visibility of rosters through Genius (as was) or Integrale occasionally reveals this is not quite true.

Thus is generic comment rather than based on any involvement with London Overground/TfL.
 
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a_c_skinner

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The majority of TOCs don't offer double time, there'd be a much higher take up of overtime if they did
That is the point, it is worth something like double time and they pay less, so they depend on overtime as it is cheap
 

Sad Sprinter

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Way on down South London town
Not to mention a consistent structure to timetables and frequency uplifts, which TfL have been happy to lay on since Covid while the National network lags behind. In my turf, we lie in wait to see what crumbs Southeastern will share in December and enjoy what commuters in every other corner of the city have enjoyed since the pandemic ended.

For most of South London, commuters pay more for their services and wait longer, and they have longer journey times overall. They start later and end earlier. Stations are generally unstaffed, routes have lopsided timetables, and these services which are supposedly so low in demand that they don’t warrant frequency uplifts, tend to cover the running costs of the lesser used services on the network.

The benefits of transferring some South London metro lines to LO clearly outweigh the negatives, and this is not a reason undermining that argument, especially when one consider’s most S London metro routes are more comparable in nature to the Weaver line which was not heavily affected by the disruption faced by other lines on the network.

The idea being posed is that transferring lines to LO would replicate the issues faced this BH to other parts of London’s rail network, but when one considers this, even if it was the case, against fare reductions & integration with the rest of the capital’s payment system, frequency uplifts, a rigid/predictable service (ie: one line, one terminal), having stations properly staffed, I reckon the scale still tips in favour of LO.

Additionally, some of the issues faced by LO depots were not issues South of the river. When creating depot structures and contracts etc, I fail to see why these would not be amended to provide a better BH service going forward. That’s if current depot arrangements (which evidently are
not as problematic for BH working) wouldn’t be brought forward anyway?

I think people that are against South London Overgrounds don't understand living in big cities.

I cannot believe the train timetables can't survive school holidays and sunny days. Britain is developing a third-world country mentality. We've heard of post-imperial decline, but this is just careless, state-faliure decline.
 

800001

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Not sure if this has been asked, but has the level of cancellations and service recovery got worse since First Group took over from Arriva? Or is it pretty similar?
 

Craig1122

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The Underground operates without overtime for drivers and seem to avoid most of these problems..
It really doesn't, it's just slightly better hidden because there's no public timetable and no interaction with freight so it's easier to manipulate the service on the fly.
 

sharpener

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4 Oct 2018
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Mildmay line has been really suffering with cancellations recently

In the light of yesterday's posts I was nervous about going to Richmond on it today so went on the District Line. But in fact it seemed to be running OK and we came back to Highbury & Islington on it this evening no problem.

Yes I know the Windsor line would have been 10 mins quicker but have grown to hate the transfer via Vauxhall.
 

Clarence Yard

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It's been documented since that when first group handed back SWR they were very short of drivers.

Because the DfT had been in effective control of their recruitment and training plans since 2020, in common with most TOCs. Several TOCs (not all FG) were in the same situation. Trying to get money off the DfT to recruit and train drivers and guards was like getting blood out of a stone. If you went into COVID short, you remained short.

Same with First Capital Connect

The situation at FCC was similar in that the DfT were asked if they wanted a recruitment drive as the franchise was put up for tender. The DfT wanted to defer and all the facts were in the long form reports and other bidder documentation, including the rates of loss. Go-Ahead mucked up the train crew numbers in their bid and looked for someone else to blame. The DfT played along as they didn’t want to admit they screwed up their evaluation, potentially embarrassing for them as they told FG they (FG) had put too far many train crew in their bid!

Not sure if this has been asked, but has the level of cancellations and service recovery got worse since First Group took over from Arriva? Or is it pretty similar?

It’s only been a couple of weeks since they took over and all that has really changed are the very senior management. So, it’s the same staff working under the same day to day management, under the same conditions in a highly specified TfL contract. I suspect any rosters were written well before the changeover. So it’s probably a bit too early to judge any effect of the changeover.

I also strongly suspect the very warm weather, a bank holiday and school holidays might have something to do with it - other TOCs have been struggling as well.
 

Recessio

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I also strongly suspect the very warm weather, a bank holiday and school holidays might have something to do with it - other TOCs have been struggling as well.
Indeed, it was notable this (Saturday) evening and night how many Underground lines also had "shortages of trains" on a very sunny Saturday with an Arsenal match
 

Class 170101

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Management also need to understand if they chose to rely on overtime, they need to incentivise it properly (pay sufficient overtime rate to actually get the volunteers), or they need to learn how to role up their sleeves and step in to help out (even if that means doing a bit of work to keep their competencies up to date). They can't have it both ways.
Managers may not be allowed to help out covering open turns by driving trains.

That has been a controversial discussion in itself.
 

TUC

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Is it school holidays this week? Likely no one wants to work overtime on their days off during the school holidays. Especially when it's a bank holiday weekend at the start with nice weather.

Picture the scene:
You only get 50% of weekends off.
Do you want to work these days off as overtime?
If the answer is "maybe", does the likelihood decrease if these fall on a:
Bank Holiday Weekend
Weekend bookending School Holidays
All of the above with nice weather.
Meanwhile, the shops are open fully staffed, and other businesses have the normal type of arrangements which don't leave days dependent upon overtime. The rail industry really isn't fit for purpose, is it?
 

Craig1122

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Meanwhile, the shops are open fully staffed, and other businesses have the normal type of arrangements which don't leave days dependent upon overtime. The rail industry really isn't fit for purpose, is it?
Open maybe but have a look at a Reddit sub for any big supermarket and you'll find they're probably far from fully staffed and very reliant on overtime. The big difference is that if you're running a shop, hospital etc that should have 30 people on shift then they'll muddle through with 15. If you need 30 train drivers and have 15 then that's 15 trains cancelled.
 

800001

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Open maybe but have a look at a Reddit sub for any big supermarket and you'll find they're probably far from fully staffed and very reliant on overtime. The big difference is that if you're running a shop, hospital etc that should have 30 people on shift then they'll muddle through with 15. If you need 30 train drivers and have 15 then that's 15 trains cancelled.
Exactly this, shops can open with minimal staff.
My local supermarket, one person manning 4 fresh food counters due to not enough staff.
 

Dieseldriver

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Open maybe but have a look at a Reddit sub for any big supermarket and you'll find they're probably far from fully staffed and very reliant on overtime. The big difference is that if you're running a shop, hospital etc that should have 30 people on shift then they'll muddle through with 15. If you need 30 train drivers and have 15 then that's 15 trains cancelled.
I’ve got to be honest, I’m always astounded that people don’t recognise this. Not to mention that with the complexities of Traincrew diagrams, there’s a good chance that even more trains would be cancelled as Drivers drive multiple trains on different ‘legs’ throughout their working day and the train with no Driver available to work itwould need to be stabled somewhere suitable.
 

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