What does 6 and 3 stub platforms at Euston mean for hs2?

[Meole]

17 for 3tph is pushing it, leaves no buffer. Even my suggestion above is risky at 25.

Is there any evidence for 3 tph ?

 

[bringbackcrouc]

25 minutes to clear, clean, check and board a 400m long train is not long

 

[HSTEd]

Turnaround times on Birmingham services can probably be more akin to suburban services than conventional intercity ones.

Journey time of only fifty ish minutes after all

 

[Zomboid]

Is there any evidence for 3 tph ?

Isn't that the plan for Birmingham? I thought it was.

If they have a longer layover in Birmingham then there won't be much to do at Euston beyond a quick walk through with a bin bag, and in less than an hour there probably won't be that much mess generated.

 

[The Planner]

Is there any evidence for 3 tph ?

I am just responding to the posts above. I expect someone has done some work om how they would view the platforms working.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2026 ==

25 minutes to clear, clean, check and board a 400m long train is not long

Works fine for 11 car 390s from Birmingham. Depends how many people you throw at it.

 

[Kingston Dan]

That and the North Wales coast are probably the additions with the most pressure for them to be delivered, the former because its cheap and relieves both St Pancras and Kings Cross, the latter because HS2 is treated as an England and Wales project that provides no benefits at all to Wales.

Not true - by taking London (and originally NW England and Yorks/NE England) trains out of New Street it frees up capacity there for additional Welsh services. How much of that benefit is still there due to HS2's truncation is moot - but a potential large cheque from London to Cardiff is yet another cost of the idiotic decisions of the Sunak and Starmer governments.

 

[The Planner]

Not true - by taking London (and originally NW England and Yorks/NE England) trains out of New Street it frees up capacity there for additional Welsh services. How much of that benefit is still there due to HS2's truncation is moot - but a potential large cheque from London to Cardiff is yet another cost of the idiotic decisions of the Sunak and Starmer governments.

HS2 would only take out trains off the Cov corridor, to say that allows more trains to Wales is doing some incredibly heavy lifting. XC trains wouldn't be removed.

 

[cle]

Not true - by taking London (and originally NW England and Yorks/NE England) trains out of New Street it frees up capacity there for additional Welsh services. How much of that benefit is still there due to HS2's truncation is moot - but a potential large cheque from London to Cardiff is yet another cost of the idiotic decisions of the Sunak and Starmer governments.

This is a bit of a reach. Do we know of any new Birmingham - Wales services planned?

If it had gotten to Crewe, that would be a material time saving for North Walians, even with a change. Current plan, less compelling (nominally a bit quicker but probably not worth getting off a direct service for)

 

[Bletchleyite]

25 minutes to clear, clean, check and board a 400m long train is not long

Do you need to do that on every turnaround? WMT don't.

Also whether it is or not depends how many staff you have.

 

[Krokodil]

And 18 trains an hour doesn’t exactly leave a lot of slack in case of delays - you’re basically screwed if a train enters the high speed section 90 seconds behind schedule.

Not really. If a train runs out of path then Control authorise the higher speeds permitted for service recovery so that the later train which is now ahead will run early and allow the delayed train to make up time. If you're set-down only at OOC then there's no need to wait for the booked departure time.

And

And presumably about 17 minutes would allow 3tph - so given the short run time and lack of interface with the outside world, Birmingham could conceivably operate from a single platform (especially if there's a longer turn round in Birmingham). Not sure you'd want to risk it with any of the other destinations.

That's too tight. You ideally want to be operating on the Intercity Shuttle principle for the Birminghams at Euston, where as one train departs the next is ready for boarding. So when a train pulls in, the staff do a very quick litter pick and the platform is called.

 

[Zomboid]

That's too tight. You ideally want to be operating on the Intercity Shuttle principle for the Birminghams at Euston, where as one train departs the next is ready for boarding. So when a train pulls in, the staff do a very quick litter pick and the platform is called

Ideally, but that would mean that the (presumed) 3tph to Birmingham will effectively fully utilise 2 of the 6 platforms, leaving only 4 for the other services which will need longer turnarounds.

If 17 is too tight then it could probably be cut to 13-15 at Euston. There will no doubt be people who spend their working day shuttling between OOC and Euston with bin bags, which will help with keeping turnarounds tight at Euston, and capacity at Curzon Street may be much easier (could probably manage 30min+ layovers there) for attending to refilling the toilet roll and whatever else takes a little longer.

 

[Krokodil]

Ideally, but that would mean that the (presumed) 3tph to Birmingham will effectively fully utilise 2 of the 6 platforms

You could probably fit the Birminghams and Manchesters together into three platforms. One platform for Liverpools and two for Anglo-Scots. that covers all of the proposed 400m services, doesn't it?

There will no doubt be people who spend their working day shuttling between OOC and Euston with bin bags

It wouldn't be very practical to do that because as soon as the train leaves OOC everyone is going to be getting out of their seats and moving to the doors. The cleaners would end up stuck. You only want to be doing litterpicking on a train in service while everyone is sat down.

 

[Manutd1999]

I'm not sure there will be many 400m services, only Birmingham (3ph) and maybe Edinburgh (1p2h)?

The delay may help HS2 here, as the rolling stock changes can be combined with a Pendalino replacement order which would be required anyway by ~2040. The Pendalino replacement could be for ~275m versions of the HS2 sets, used to serve Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow once Handsacre opens and the classic WCML.

Rail Engineer did an excellent article on this idea:

Getting the best out of HS2 - Rail Engineer

Listen to this article As originally conceived, HS2 was to be a Y network providing a by-pass for the West Coast, East Coast, and Midland Main Lines with a spur to Birmingham. After its Leeds and Manchester legs were cancelled in 2021 and 2023, all that remained was HS2 phase one to Birmingham...

www.railengineer.co.uk

 

[Zomboid]

wouldn't be very practical to do that because as soon as the train leaves OOC everyone is going to be getting out of their seats and moving to the doors. The cleaners would end up stuck. You only want to be doing litterpicking on a train in service while everyone is sat down.

It'd be more productive than waiting until everyone actually gets off at Euston. The cleaners would already be on board upon arrival, and may well be able to get some stuff sorted out before arrival as the carriages should empty out quite a bit at OOC.

Marginal gains, perhaps. But the Birmingham trains shouldn't be in a terrible state anyway if they were cleaned before leaving Birmingham.

 

[The Planner]

I'm not sure there will be many 400m services, only Birmingham (3ph) and maybe Edinburgh (1p2h)?

The delay may help HS2 here, as the rolling stock changes can be combined with a Pendalino replacement order which would be required anyway by ~2040. The Pendalino replacement could be for ~275m versions of the HS2 sets, used to serve Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow once Handsacre opens and the classic WCML.

Rail Engineer did an excellent article on this idea:

Getting the best out of HS2 - Rail Engineer

Listen to this article As originally conceived, HS2 was to be a Y network providing a by-pass for the West Coast, East Coast, and Midland Main Lines with a spur to Birmingham. After its Leeds and Manchester legs were cancelled in 2021 and 2023, all that remained was HS2 phase one to Birmingham...

www.railengineer.co.uk

You would replace 390s with the same class of train as HS2. Lets face it, the HS2 trains will run on the classic network before it opens.

 

[Krokodil]

and may well be able to get some stuff sorted out before arrival

Can freshen up the toilets and change the vestibule bins, I suppose.

You would replace 390s with the same class of train as HS2. Lets face it, the HS2 trains will run on the classic network before it opens.

The question is how long do you make them? 200m or 250m?

 

[MatthewHutton]

25 minutes to clear, clean, check and board a 400m long train is not long

The Japanese do 2 minutes off, 7 minutes cleaning, 3 minutes on north of Tokyo.

There is a challenge around making sure people have time to clear the platform when it’s a true terminus unlike Tokyo but you don’t need loads of time. For a 200m train probably 12 minutes plus recovery (and probably 20 minutes plus recovery for a 400m train) is reasonable with the main issue being making sure there’s time to walk down the platform - or at least the elderly and disabled have to be able to queue up before the train arrives.

Some of the recovery can also be between Old Oak Common and Euston. In Tokyo from the north I believe there is 3 minutes slack in each direction between Omiya and Tokyo assuming a 2 minute stop at Ueno.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 May 2026 ==

I'm not sure there will be many 400m services, only Birmingham (3ph) and maybe Edinburgh (1p2h)?

Probably not even worth the Birmingham ones being that length outside peak - and there’s all the intermediate stops that will need serving so you can’t for Edinburgh/glasgow.

It'd be more productive than waiting until everyone actually gets off at Euston. The cleaners would already be on board upon arrival, and may well be able to get some stuff sorted out before arrival as the carriages should empty out quite a bit at OOC

Or you just hire more cleaners like Tokyo.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 May 2026 ==

So when a train pulls in, the staff do a very quick litter pick and the platform is called.

If the new platforms are big enough (which I bet they are because of the hyper-cautious civil service) you can call the platform as soon as the previous train has departed. If there’s only one type of train you can have paint markings showing where to wait.

And then you don’t need any longer than Tokyo to turn a train around - plus longer delay recovery of course.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 May 2026 ==

The question is how long do you make them? 200m or 250m?

250 sounds sensible.

 

[WideRanger]

The Japanese do 2 minutes off, 7 minutes cleaning, 3 minutes on north of Tokyo.

There is a challenge around making sure people have time to clear the platform when it’s a true terminus unlike Tokyo but you don’t need loads of time. For a 200m train probably 12 minutes plus recovery (and probably 20 minutes plus recovery for a 400m train) is reasonable with the main issue being making sure there’s time to walk down the platform - or at least the elderly and disabled have to be able to queue up before the train arrives.

Some of the recovery can also be between Old Oak Common and Euston. In Tokyo from the north I believe there is 3 minutes slack in each direction between Omiya and Tokyo assuming a 2 minute stop at Ueno.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 May 2026 ==


Probably not even worth the Birmingham ones being that length outside peak - and there’s all the intermediate stops that will need serving so you can’t for Edinburgh/glasgow.

Or you just hire more cleaners like Tokyo.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 May 2026 ==


If the new platforms are big enough (which I bet they are because of the hyper-cautious civil service) you can call the platform as soon as the previous train has departed. If there’s only one type of train you can have paint markings showing where to wait.

And then you don’t need any longer than Tokyo to turn a train around - plus longer delay recovery of course.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 May 2026 ==


250 sounds sensible.

I have a feeling that the level of societal discipline that enables this to work in Tokyo (including queues on the platform for the next 2 trains, people prevented from boarding trains early even when the door are open by signs saying 'please don't board yet', and a culture where most people would be horrified to leave the place they say untidy) might not be achievable in the UK at this moment.

 

[MatthewHutton]

I have a feeling that the level of societal discipline that enables this to work in Tokyo (including queues on the platform for the next 2 trains, people prevented from boarding trains early even when the door are open by signs saying 'please don't board yet', and a culture where most people would be horrified to leave the place they say untidy) might not be achievable in the UK at this moment.

Fair. But also you could just have people needing extra assistance on the platform ahead of time and everyone else held back. Which they do already.

 

[md2016]

Will changing at Old Oak Common onto crossrail be easier for most? Given the lag before Euston opens, I can see many getting used to swapping onto the Elizabeth line at OOC, meaning less capacity required and faster turnover times at Euston.

 

[JamesT]

Will changing at Old Oak Common onto crossrail be easier for most? Given the lag before Euston opens, I can see many getting used to swapping onto the Elizabeth line at OOC, meaning less capacity required and faster turnover times at Euston.

I think the modelling was that about a third of passengers would use OOC when both are opened.

 

[Palmerston]

I think the modelling was that about a third of passengers would use OOC when both are opened.

Does anyone know if the modelling assumed Crossrail 2 would have been built?

 

[zwk500]

Does anyone know if the modelling assumed Crossrail 2 would have been built?

There were almost certainly 'with' and 'without' scenarios done. I don't know which have been reported publicly.

 

[kevin_roche]

Does anyone know if the modelling assumed Crossrail 2 would have been built?

I remember some speculative videos on YouTube about the plans for Crossrail 2 and the accompanying changes at Euston needed to cope with the transfers between HS2 and Crossrail 2.

 

[Tobberz]

I assume a large proportion of west londoners (plus, west-of-englanders) will get off at OOC.

 

[weeklycommuter]

It has been stated that 6 platforms at HS2 Euston support up to 10 trains per hour and it was previously stated that 10 platforms at HS2 Euston would support up to 16 trains per hour. It is stated anywhere how many trains per hour could terminate at HS2 Euston with 7, 8 or 9 platforms?

And speeds to Sheffield would be much improved and it would be cheap to extend HS2 to support.

There should be capacity:
3tph birmingham
3tph Manchester
2tph liverpool
1tph chester and north wales
1tph Manchester via Macclesfield
2tph mainline north of Crewe

So that’s only 12tph, I’d have thought we could add in an extra 2tph to Leeds via Sheffield without the world ending. It’s probably all your capacity though.

If they insist on connecting HS2 to the West Coast Main Line at Handsacre Junction they would surely be limited to the current eight passenger trains an hour each way through the Colwich Shugborough bottleneck. 3tph Birmingham not affected but the eight trains are currently the hourly West Midlands Trent Valley stopping train to Crewe and seven Avanti trains including three to Manchester, two to Liverpool, one to Chester and one to Scotland. The second hourly London to Scotland Avanti train goes via Birmingham.

If they want the Chester train to use HS2 they will have to electrify Crewe to Chester. Without this electrification they could only run 3tph Birmingham and 6tph North of Birmingham from HS2 Euston. To run more than this North of Birmingham they will have to extend HS2 to bypass the Colwich Shugborough bottleneck.

 

[Zomboid]

they want the Chester train to use HS2 they will have to electrify Crewe to Chester. Without this electrification they could only run 3tph Birmingham and 6tph North of Birmingham from HS2 Euston. To run more than this North of Birmingham they will have to extend HS2 to bypass the Colwich Shugborough bottleneck

It'll still have to go through Colwich whether it uses HS2 or not.

What impact would it have if HS2 were extended to somewhere like Hixon, so only the Stafford trains would run via Rugeley? It'll get the Manchester via Stoke trains out of the way but would you get more than that by removing the conflicts?

 

[The Planner]

If they insist on connecting HS2 to the West Coast Main Line at Handsacre Junction they would surely be limited to the current eight passenger trains an hour each way through the Colwich Shugborough bottleneck. 3tph Birmingham not affected but the eight trains are currently the hourly West Midlands Trent Valley stopping train to Crewe and seven Avanti trains including three to Manchester, two to Liverpool, one to Chester and one to Scotland. The second hourly London to Scotland Avanti train goes via Birmingham.

If they want the Chester train to use HS2 they will have to electrify Crewe to Chester. Without this electrification they could only run 3tph Birmingham and 6tph North of Birmingham from HS2 Euston. To run more than this North of Birmingham they will have to extend HS2 to bypass the Colwich Shugborough bottleneck.

This isn't a new thing and has extensively been discussed on here. There is no proposal to run towards Chester.

 

[weeklycommuter]

It'll still have to go through Colwich whether it uses HS2 or not.

The London to Chester train will still be one of the eight passenger trains an hour each way passing through Colwich but it will continue to use the West Coast Main Line not HS2. It will continue to terminate at the West Coast Main Line Euston Station not HS2 Euston so the number of HS2 trains an hour North of Birmingham will be six not seven.

What impact would it have if HS2 were extended to somewhere like Hixon, so only the Stafford trains would run via Rugeley? It'll get the Manchester via Stoke trains out of the way but would you get more than that by removing the conflicts?

At present they keep insisting that HS2 will join the West Coast Main Line at Handsacre Junction which means they will be stuck with the current limits on the number of freight and passenger trains between Stafford and the combined HS2 and Trent Valley Lines. If they want to use the full capacity of HS2 and get all the West Coast Main Line capacity benefits which were the reason to build HS2 they need to connect HS2 to the West Coast Main Line between Norton Junction and Crewe.

 

[Zomboid]

they need to connect HS2 to the West Coast Main Line between Norton Junction and Crewe.

I was thinking of a scenario where HS2 connects to the WCML at Handsace and somewhere on the Colwich to Stone line (eg Hixon), so the HS2 Manchester via Stoke trains don't run via Colwich, and you could effectively close the Colwich to Hixon line. Therefore no conflict between up & down trains at Colwich. Anything via Crewe still goes through Shugborough.

Would the de-conflicting create any additional benefits? Would it now be possible to get e.g. 10 tph though Colwich? (4 extra now the Manchesters are diverted)