Skegness by EMR this Summer, 2 car 158s today, must be cozy

[bunnahabhain]

EMR now have more stock in their regional fleet than was the case when it was just the 15x fleets. The 21 x 153s and 24 x 156s (69 vehicles) have been replaced by 43 Turbostars (102 vehicles), which is a reasonable (27%) capacity increase. So the question is - what are EMR doing with them?

Around 50% of Liverpool services are now formed of 5 or 6 car 170s, with the corresponding Norwich service being a 3 car 170. So that's taken a number of those vehicles, then if you look at Crewe, Peterborough to Doncaster and Cleethorpes services, they've gone from mostly 153s to 170s, so there's the rest of your vehicles. Unfortunately the days where you'd pinch the extra 153 on the 2x153 diagrams for Skegness is long gone.

There's also 3 units on refurbishment, and additional services to Lincoln and Cleethorpes all day which has taken 3 extra units.

Fleet utilisation on Mondays, Fridays and Saturdays is pretty much 100% aside from maintenance and refurbishment units. There's nothing left in the barrel.

 

[Russel]

Was it ever full though ?

I recall being on a 153 that left people behind at Matlock Bath on a nice day one summer a few years back.

If you've been following the NHS, roads, armed forces, education etc. you know the answer. If not you can work it out. Rail isn't an exception.

I know what you mean, long term underfunding, but as with the NHS, the railway has a lot of bloat and inefficiencies that would free up a shed load of cash...

 

[dk1]

Around 50% of Liverpool services are now formed of 5 or 6 car 170s, with the corresponding Norwich service being a 3 car 170. So that's taken a number of those vehicles, then if you look at Crewe, Peterborough to Doncaster and Cleethorpes services, they've gone from mostly 153s to 170s, so there's the rest of your vehicles. Unfortunately the days where you'd pinch the extra 153 on the 2x153 diagrams for Skegness is long gone.

There's also 3 units on refurbishment, and additional services to Lincoln and Cleethorpes all day which has taken 3 extra units.

Fleet utilisation on Mondays, Fridays and Saturdays is pretty much 100% aside from maintenance and refurbishment units. There's nothing left in the barrel.

Although no consolation to those on the Jolly Fisherman route, Norwich to Liverpool is far more important and revenue generating than its cross Lincolnshire competitor.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Although no consolation to those on the Jolly Fisherman route, Norwich to Liverpool is far more important and revenue generating than its cross Lincolnshire competitor.

I think LIV-NRW is about 17% of revenue and the rest of the regional side is around 7-8%. So it tells you where the money is coming from! To be fair there has been some growth regional side as it used to be about 5%.

 

[Class 170101]

EMR now have more stock in their regional fleet than was the case when it was just the 15x fleets. The 21 x 153s and 24 x 156s (69 vehicles) have been replaced by 43 Turbostars (102 vehicles), which is a reasonable (27%) capacity increase. So the question is - what are EMR doing with them?

Additionally Lincoln is now 2tph since Dec 25 TT came into effect rather than the 1tph. that costs more units.

The Class 222 Fleet is also under pressure due to Class 810 units arriving late and some 222s being released to Lumo, so cannot be used elsewhere (eg Nottingham to Liverpool) to cover this route to release 158s / 170s.

 

[dk1]

I think LIV-NRW is about 17% of revenue and the rest of the regional side is around 7-8%. So it tells you where the money is coming from! To be fair there has been some growth regional side as it used to be about 5%.

Pleased to hear that. All revenue seems to be in growth across the franchise which is good news.

 

[Wolfie]

I don’t know about the armed forces but in the NHS and Education the largest issue is the presence of an extremely large number of staff who believe the services exist in order to give them jobs rather than to provide the service they are meant to provide and equality managers who are more concerned about ticking boxes than meeting the demands of the service.

Oh joy, an ill-informed rant about the public sector.

 

[Rab Smith]

When GBR is fully up and running, could we see a scenario where identifying capacity issues such as a sunny day in Skeggy can be solved by bringing in units from what would have been a different franchise i.e Northern trains if they had units spare?
Probably not!

 

[GuyGibsonVC]

I recall being on a 153 that left people behind at Matlock Bath on a nice day one summer a few years back.



I know what you mean, long term underfunding, but as with the NHS, the railway has a lot of bloat and inefficiencies that would free up a shed load of cash...

Not to go off topic but what bloat and inefficiencies would you tackle first?

 

[Russel]

Oh joy, an ill-informed rant about the public sector.

I'd say it's not a million miles off the reality to be fair.

Especially the NHS.

 

[dk1]

When GBR is fully up and running, could we see a scenario where identifying capacity issues such as a sunny day in Skeggy can be solved by bringing in units from what would have been a different franchise i.e Northern trains if they had units spare?
Probably not!

Yep, probably or maybe definitely not.

 

[Horizon22]

When GBR is fully up and running, could we see a scenario where identifying capacity issues such as a sunny day in Skeggy can be solved by bringing in units from what would have been a different franchise i.e Northern trains if they had units spare?
Probably not!

No. Because "spare" units don't actually exist that much. Plus it's could be quite a bit of logistics to get things from one place to another, on a very short-notice basis.

Honestly if I had penny for the amount of mentions of "when GBR is running we should see..."!

 

[Russel]

Not to go off topic but what bloat and inefficiencies would you tackle first?

We've had nearly 30 years of privatisation that has lead to the entire industry becoming fragmented, 20+ TOCs all with their own management structure, policies, procedures, supply chain etc, look at big stations like Manchester Picadilly or London Euston, it's served by multiple TOCs, all with their own staff presence, own staff facilities, management, none of this is free...

Yes, GBR in theory will solve some of the issues, but we'll never get back to a truly British Rail style operation, things are just too far gone

 

[dk1]

Honestly if I had penny for the amount of mentions of "when GBR is running we should see..."!

Very much agree. People have either very short, or no memory of what went before. It was BR that send solo 153s across the Poacher Line during peak season and advised passengers not to travel. Similar advice was given on other holiday routes & Super Saver restrictions became Saver thus bumping up fares to even more dampen demand at the busiest times.

 

[Horizon22]

Very much agree. People have either very short, or no memory of what went before. It was BR that send solo 153s across the Poacher Line during peak season and advised passengers not to travel. Similar advice was given on other holiday routes & Super Saver restrictions became Saver thus bumping up fares to even more dampen demand at the busiest times.

This is not to say things cannot improve, but ultimately the major blocker to this is suitable funding, additional flexibility and widescale competent reorganisation, none of which seem to be clearly definitely determined.

 

[dk1]

This is not to say things cannot improve, but ultimately the major blocker to this is suitable funding, additional flexibility and widescale competent reorganisation, none of which seem to be clearly definitely determined.

It’s very early days and none of us are quite sure where this is going. I personally don’t see any great changes in traditionally seasonal routes with peaks & troughs and a low revenue base in the current climate. Happy to be proved wrong though.

 

[Dave61]

At least these days the days of a single 153 heading to Matlock are long gone

Luxury, in the late 1980's the service from Derby to Matlock was a single coach with a shunter on either end - I kid you not!

 

[Horizon22]

It’s very early days and none of us are quite sure where this is going. I personally don’t see any great changes in traditionally seasonal routes with peaks & troughs and a low revenue base in the current climate. Happy to be proved wrong though.

No, rolling stock shortages (or better put, inadequate capacity for routes served) are quite common across much of the country. More ultimately needs to be purchased and funded somehow. But this requires a "growth mindset" which is somewhat lacking, although this is not isolated to just the rail sector. Anyway I'm drifting off-topic so I'll leave it here!

 

[GuyGibsonVC]

We've had nearly 30 years of privatisation that has lead to the entire industry becoming fragmented, 20+ TOCs all with their own management structure, policies, procedures, supply chain etc, look at big stations like Manchester Picadilly or London Euston, it's served by multiple TOCs, all with their own staff presence, own staff facilities, management, none of this is free...

Yes, GBR in theory will solve some of the issues, but we'll never get back to a truly British Rail style operation, things are just too far gone

Yes, the Balkanisation of the past 30 years is going to take a while to unpick, and I don't think will ever fully be.

 

[Russel]

Yes, the Balkanisation of the past 30 years is going to take a while to unpick, and I don't think will ever fully be.

I agree, I doubt it ever will be.

In reality, I can see GBR being what we have now but under government control and a uniform livery, at lease for much longer than many people realize.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Yes, the Balkanisation of the past 30 years is going to take a while to unpick, and I don't think will ever fully be.

The balkanisation started before then - Sectorisation was balkanisation on speed! I lived it and was part of it. The amazing thing is some people actually would like to go back to it.

The real problem is that there isn’t the spare stock at weekends like we used to have. So coping with seasonal demand becomes a real headache.

 

[bunnahabhain]

When GBR is fully up and running, could we see a scenario where identifying capacity issues such as a sunny day in Skeggy can be solved by bringing in units from what would have been a different franchise i.e Northern trains if they had units spare?
Probably not!

In theory yes. In the old days under Central we shipped in units from the West Midlands. If the entire 170/172 fleet across EMR/XC/WMR were one big fleet that everybody signed you could probably increase capacity at the drop of a hat because the trains wouldn't have the wrong stickers on the side. An XC unit was hired in a few years ago, but I don't know what their unit availability is like these days.

 

[Starmill]

I bet the thing that started this off was a 2+2 was diagrammed and one failed. Today they are all pairs of 158, except for where a three car Turbostar comes into the mix an odd time during the day.

Yes I agree a four car 158 set will still be uncomfortable. But it's not like Skegness is just being ignored completely. It takes patience and fortitude and it usually results in poor punctuality but you can crush an awful lot of people inside a four car 158.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I bet the thing that started this off was a 2+2 was diagrammed and one failed.

That's not what was said up thread, 2 car 158s are just what is provided on Sunday from Skegness, with 4 cars on Monday and Friday.

Today they are all pairs of 158, except for where a three car Turbostar comes into the mix an odd time during the day.

Butlins changeover day and a bank holiday - it's going to be busy that's for sure.

 

[Harpo]

The balkanisation started before then - Sectorisation was balkanisation on speed! I lived it and was part of it. The amazing thing is some people actually would like to go back to it.

Quite - The start of the industry’s infighting, the end of economic marginal resourcing and the beginning of fleet customisation (vandalism?) to prevent vehicles being used by the wider railway. Lots of babies went out with the bathwater.

 

[duffield]

The important point is what this quote from EMR (linked in post #1) actually means in practice:

Approximately 4683 extra seats available per week.

This is meaningless until we know what services the extra seats will be added to.

I suppose the fact that additional bus services are not mentioned implies that EMR think they will probably not have to turn too many passengers away!

 

[Trainman40083]

Luxury, in the late 1980's the service from Derby to Matlock was a single coach with a shunter on either end - I kid you not!

I think you will find out, that they used Class 20s with about four coaches. I certainly never heard of shunters with one coach being used. 15mph top speed.

 

[Dave61]

I think you will find out, that they used Class 20s with about four coaches. I certainly never heard of shunters with one coach being used. 15mph top speed.

It was a long time ago so , yes my memory might have tripped me up. 15mph sounds about right, it was blistering hot as well

 

[Forty29]

Yes class 20's and coaches. Was it because shortages of dmu's?

 

[Trainman40083]

Yes class 20's and coaches. Was it because shortages of dmu's?

Trying to recall if it was to do with withdrawal of asbestos DMUs. Also used 20s on Derby to Crewe.