Failed onboard scan on advance ticket "& connections"

[kijeta]

I made a journey from Thetford to London Terminals, using an advance ticket specifying "21:12 Thameslink and Gt Northern Gn From Cambridge to London Kings Cross".

I followed the journey planner itinerary of boarding the 2000 at Thetford, arriving at Cambridge at 2046 (that's the last Thetford->Cambridge train that'll be able to connect to the 2112 GN from Cambridge anyways)

The guard came around on the GA train between Thetford and Brandon, at 2007, where the handheld machine rejected the scan, saying it's too early for the advance ticket.

Surely this isn't a niche issue? Plenty of advance tickets require using a connection prior to the reserved service. Is this a known issue? I knew enough about fares to be certain that, in any event, I followed exactly what the accredited journey planner says, and therefore that ticket must have been valid - so the guard gave up after a few back-and-forths with an "alright then", but surely some passengers won't know that their ticket is valid and may have been tricked/coerced by the guard to purchase a new ticket?

 

[toffeedanish]

It is not possible to programme a scanner with every valid ticket combination so a check will involve some assumptions, some of which may result in the guard needing to look at the ticket. Nobody will be "tricked/coerced" by a guard. A simple explanation on the part of the customer should suffice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A simple explanation on the part of the customer should suffice.

A customer should not have to explain why they are travelling on their booked itinerary.

At most the staff should have asked the passenger to show it on the e-ticket.

If they questioned it, this is a totally inappropriate act by the guard which could make the passenger nervous of travelling in future. I would seriously consider a formal complaint.

 

[Snow1964]

It is not possible to programme a scanner with every valid ticket combination so a check will involve some assumptions, some of which may result in the guard needing to look at the ticket. Nobody will be "tricked/coerced" by a guard. A simple explanation on the part of the customer should suffice.

Although should never really be customer that has to do the work to provide an explanation because of deficiencies in equipment issued to staff.

If going to move to scanners they need to be programmed properly, or combinations they can't handle shouldn't be issued

 

[toffeedanish]

A customer should not have to explain why they are travelling on their booked itinerary.

At most the staff should have asked the passenger to show it on the e-ticket.

If they questioned it, this is a totally inappropriate act by the guard which could make the passenger nervous of travelling in future. I would seriously consider a formal complaint.

I absolutely agree. My assumption was in the OPs case that the guard had asked to see a booked itinerary, rather than was questioning it. The 'simple explanation' I had in mind was 'I'm travelling on my booked itinerary'.

 

[kijeta]

I should add that this wasn't an e-ticket, but rather a ToD that was printed onto a PRT. This meant that I had to search through my emails for the journey planner itinerary. In a similar case where the passenger isn't the one who booked the ticket (or even, if they bought it from a ticket office), there would be no way for them to show the itinerary to justify the validity.

Nobody will be "tricked/coerced" by a guard.

I would have been, if I didn't firmly claim that I'm travelling on the booked itinerary. The guard was about to sell me a new ticket.

If they questioned it, this is a totally inappropriate act by the guard which could make the passenger nervous of travelling in future. I would seriously consider a formal complaint.

I did get questioned. I also used a disabled adult railcard - so it's not impossible that I may be nervous of travelling, or when questioned.

The 'simple explanation' I had in mind was 'I'm travelling on my booked itinerary'.

The fact that "booked itinerary is always valid for an advance ticket" isn't really advertised. Just because we, as users of this forum, are aware of it, doesn't mean the average passenger would.

 

[Adam Williams]

Do you still have the PRT barcode, out of interest?

 

[yorkie]

I made a journey from Thetford to London Terminals, using an advance ticket specifying "21:12 Thameslink and Gt Northern Gn From Cambridge to London Kings Cross".

I followed the journey planner itinerary of boarding the 2000 at Thetford, arriving at Cambridge at 2046 (that's the last Thetford->Cambridge train that'll be able to connect to the 2112 GN from Cambridge anyways)

The guard came around on the GA train between Thetford and Brandon, at 2007, where the handheld machine rejected the scan, saying it's too early for the advance ticket.

Surely this isn't a niche issue? Plenty of advance tickets require using a connection prior to the reserved service. Is this a known issue? I knew enough about fares to be certain that, in any event, I followed exactly what the accredited journey planner says, and therefore that ticket must have been valid - so the guard gave up after a few back-and-forths with an "alright then", but surely some passengers won't know that their ticket is valid and may have been tricked/coerced by the guard to purchase a new ticket?

Did you buy from us? If so, let me know if you require any additional support with this.

I think the Guard just made this up; sadly, some Guards are bad at their job and don't act in a manner that is appropriate for the role. This is because there are insufficient safeguards in place to ensure that only suitable people get these roles, and there are very few - if any - checks that such staff are doing this aspect of their job properly once they are in post.

Yes, absolutely, some people are tricked by Guards and other staff into purchasing tickets when they are using an entirely valid ticket, and I am aware of several forum members who have wrongly been told to buy tickets this year alone, when their original ticket should have been accepted.

I strongly advise that you lodge a formal complaint with Greater Anglia about the conduct of this individual. I doubt much will happen; the best we can hope for is that someone has a quiet road (very different to misconduct in any job I've ever done, but I've not worked for a TOC, where the bar for misbehaviour in relation to ticketing matters is very different to what it should be...)

Please let us know what GA say about the complaint.

 

[kijeta]

Do you still have the PRT barcode, out of interest?

Yes, I do.

 

[OscarH]

The ToD reference should have contained all timetabled journey legs, and I'm pretty sure the barcode should to, not just reserved ones. Certainly the depart at time should be the first timetabled leg not the first reserved one.

I think someone has messed up here

 

[kijeta]

The ToD reference should have contained all timetabled journey legs, and I'm pretty sure the barcode should to, not just reserved ones. Certainly the depart at time should be the first timetabled leg not the first reserved one.

I think someone has messed up here

Here's the itinerary for reference.

 

[ns274]

The ToD reference should have contained all timetabled journey legs

Not necessarily - you can't put a non-reservable service onto the ToD database.

It could be the case that only the reservable legs reached the ToD database (in OP's case, the 2000 service was not reservable), and Kings Cross TIS decided to reconstruct the time of departure based on the earliest reservation it could see.

Whilst in the case of an eTicket, the start time will usually be appropriately encoded by the retailer according to the itinerary, the itinerary does not reach the ToD database. This is why ToDs should not be fulfilled as PRTs.

 

[OscarH]

Not necessarily - you can't put a non-reservable service onto the ToD database.

It could be the case that only the reservable legs reached the ToD database (in OP's case, the 2000 service was not reservable), and Kings Cross TIS decided to reconstruct the time of departure based on the earliest reservation it could see.

Whilst in the case of an eTicket, the start time will usually be appropriately encoded by the retailer according to the itinerary, the itinerary does not reach the ToD database. This is why ToDs should not be fulfilled as PRTs.

You definitely can, and the ToD spec is quite clear that you should.

As it turns out, this is one of our bookings, and I actually wrote the code to interact with LSM a couple of years ago. The first leg was indeed written:

 

[ns274]

You definitely can, and the ToD spec is quite clear that you should.

As it turns out, this is one of our bookings, and I actually wrote the code to interact with LSM a couple of years ago. The first leg was indeed written:
View attachment 204604

Interestingly I have never seen any ToD advance printing a non-reservable journey, so I assumed that you simply can't do it!

Will that appear on the actual ticket?

 

[Hadders]

It's possible that the inspectors handset was set up incorrectly.

 

[ns274]

It's possible that the inspectors handset was set up incorrectly.

It appears that OP's eta.st/tickets screenshot shows departure time as 21:12 (mandatory). That would have been 20:00 if it were directly fulfilled as an eTicket, so it's more likely that the PRT was incorrectly encoded by KGX TIS.

 

[OscarH]

Interestingly I have never seen any ToD advance printing a non-reservable journey, so I assumed that you simply can't do it!

Will that appear on the actual ticket?

No, you're absolutely right the unreserved legs won't actually be printed on the coupon, despite being in the database

It's possible that the inspectors handset was set up incorrectly.

That barcode payload data is definitely wrong

 

[Adam Williams]

Yes, I do.

I was hoping for the actual PRT barcode, not eta's site's interpretation of it.

Given we sold it, please can you write in to TrainSplit customer support, send an actual photo of the barcode (ideally the whole coupon) and then someone technical can get this escalated to RDG's accreditation team so that they can contact the manufacturer of the ticket machine.

Please make it clear that someone technical needs to handle the support request so you don't get incorrectly fobbed off.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Can you send me a copy of the barcode by PM if you prefer and I'll look into it. (I'm the person that looks after the ticket machines at KGX)