TOC specific tickets (e.g. Virgin or LM only)

[Justin Smith]

I was passing through Stoke station today and happened to notice the arrivals monitor, on which was listed the trains due in the next hour.
What really caught my eye was the Virgin Service to Euston with a sub note "London Midland tickets not valid on this service".
A little further down was a service to Manchester Piccadilly with a sub note "Virgin tickets not valid on this service".
Now I know that advance purchase tickets are only valid for one particular train, but what do the above mentioned sub notes mean ? I've never seen them on any other arrivals monitor before. Apart from anything else, if they were just referring to the advanced purchase ticket restriction I'd have thought they were a bit meaningless, because apart from not being valid on London Midland services, your Virgin ticket isn't valid on any other Virgin service either !

Is this the beginning of the end of the integrated railway.......

 

[thewolf]

The London Midland only off-peak return (or super off-peak) from Stoke to Euston is less than half the 'Any Permitted' fare.

Going the other way from Stoke to Piccadilly, the VT Only off-peak return fare is 3 or 4 quid cheaper than Any Permitted.

Presumably the TOC specific fare all goes to that TOC, rather than into a pot split between all operators, so understandably VT don't want LM passengers on their Euston trains and XC or Northern don't want VT only passengers using them to get to Manchester.

 

[Justin Smith]

The London Midland only off-peak return (or super off-peak) from Stoke to Euston is less than half the 'Any Permitted' fare.

Going the other way from Stoke to Piccadilly, the VT Only off-peak return fare is 3 or 4 quid cheaper than Any Permitted.

Presumably the TOC specific fare all goes to that TOC, rather than into a pot split between all operators, so understandably VT don't want LM passengers on their Euston trains and XC or Northern don't want VT only passengers using them to get to Manchester.

Is this the thin end of the wedge when it comes to an integrated railway.....

 

[thewolf]

You could look it at that way, alternatively you could see it as offering a bit of competition, or more choice and cheaper for the travelling public.

If you want to get to London in an hour and 45 without stopping, you pay £50 and go with Virgin - If you're in no rush and don't mind taking 3 hours you pay £22 and go with LM.

Looking at fares from Birmingham to London from next month there is an LM only super-off-peak return at £19, a new VT only super-off-peak at £24.50 and a Chiltern only super-off-peak return at £25. Without the TOC specific fares you'd be looking at paying £45 for a return to London.

If it brings the price down, it can only be a good thing, surely...

 

[First class]

The London Midland only off-peak return (or super off-peak) from Stoke to Euston is less than half the 'Any Permitted' fare.

Going the other way from Stoke to Piccadilly, the VT Only off-peak return fare is 3 or 4 quid cheaper than Any Permitted.

Presumably the TOC specific fare all goes to that TOC, rather than into a pot split between all operators, so understandably VT don't want LM passengers on their Euston trains and XC or Northern don't want VT only passengers using them to get to Manchester.

Virgin ironically get £2.95 for selling a Stoke-Euston route LM Only saver.

Anyway, shouldn't Virgin be praised for making sure people know they can't tickets on certain trains?

 

[AlterEgo]

Anyway, shouldn't Virgin be praised for making sure people know they can't tickets on certain trains?

Quite!

TOC-specific tickets have been around for years; they're nothing new. It's better to see them as offering competition, as they're almost always cheaper than the fully-interavailable Any Permitted fares.

 

[323235]

They always make announcements at Stoke to the effect of what is shown on the screens i.e. Virgin Trains tickets arn't valid etc...)

 

[bb21]

Virgin ironically get £2.95 for selling a Stoke-Euston route LM Only saver.

Anyway, shouldn't Virgin be praised for making sure people know they can't tickets on certain trains?

Yes. I agree that they should be applauded for making an effort.

However the way they have done it has just added more confusion. What does it mean by "London Midland tickets not valid"? Does it mean LM-priced, LM routed, or tickets bought onboard LM trains?

Maybe they should have said "Tickets routed London Midland Only or LM Only are not valid on this service" or words to that effect.

 

[causton]

Yes. I agree that they should be applauded for making an effort.

However the way they have done it has just added more confusion. What does it mean by "London Midland tickets not valid"? Does it mean LM-priced, LM routed, or tickets bought onboard LM trains?

Maybe they should have said "Tickets routed London Midland Only or LM Only are not valid on this service" or words to that effect.

The first one people won't even know about - they won't know LM price some fares and not others.
The second one is the obvious meaning.
The third - tickets sold onboard trains are very rare! :P

 

[A0]

Yes. I agree that they should be applauded for making an effort.

However the way they have done it has just added more confusion. What does it mean by "London Midland tickets not valid"? Does it mean LM-priced, LM routed, or tickets bought onboard LM trains?

Maybe they should have said "Tickets routed London Midland Only or LM Only are not valid on this service" or words to that effect.

In my experience the tickets are clearly marked London Midland only or Virgin Only and the announcements I've heard at MKC - where the same situation applies - clearly state 'Tickets marked 'x' are NOT valid on this service'.

I'd have said it was pretty clear and anyone who still gets on when the ticket states valid on 'x' operator only, the station announcements and departures also state the restrictions is, in all probablility, trying it on.

 

[bb21]

The first one people won't even know about - they won't know LM price some fares and not others.

Not necessarily. Anyone with a copy of Avantix would be able to work it out.

... the announcements I've heard at MKC - where the same situation applies - clearly state 'Tickets marked 'x' are NOT valid on this service'.

I agree that if this is what the announcement says then there would not be any confusion, however from what the OP stated, it is not the case at Stoke.

I'd have said it was pretty clear and anyone who still gets on when the ticket states valid on 'x' operator only, the station announcements and departures also state the restrictions is, in all probablility, trying it on.

I agree. However the station departure board at Stoke, in the way that the OP describes, is not clear. It should be reworded.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....if they were just referring to the advanced purchase ticket restriction I'd have thought they were a bit meaningless, because apart from not being valid on London Midland services, your Virgin ticket isn't valid on any other Virgin service either !....

Virgin and London Midland both have some 'Walk-up' fares that are TOC specific.

Not necessarily. Anyone with a copy of Avantix would be able to work it out....

What percentage of passengers do you think have heard of Advantix, nevermind having obtained a copy of it?

 

[snail]

However the station departure board at Stoke, in the way that the OP describes, is not clear. It should be reworded.

I've bought VT only tickets on that line from a TVM and it is made very clear that the ticket is valid on Virgin Trains only. I would think the booking office would do the same.

 

[causton]

Not necessarily. Anyone with a copy of Avantix would be able to work it out.

Considering people don't even know that (for example) FCC don't own the track their trains run on, or their trains for that matter, I don't think they know how tickets are priced, or that customers can buy software to give them train ticket prices, or that it will tell them who prices a certain fare!

 

[Welshman]

Is this the thin end of the wedge when it comes to an integrated railway.....

No - that happened with privatisation in 1990s.

 

[RJ]

Yes. I agree that they should be applauded for making an effort.

However the way they have done it has just added more confusion. What does it mean by "London Midland tickets not valid"? Does it mean LM-priced, LM routed, or tickets bought onboard LM trains?

Maybe they should have said "Tickets routed London Midland Only or LM Only are not valid on this service" or words to that effect.

Adds confusion for who exactly? Who, other than the more obsessive breed of people who have time to pick holes in everything? Clearly, knowing how to access Avantix/the NRG bears no correlation with having basic skills of deduction.

 

[tony_mac]

it could add confusion for people who are not familiar with the railways.

If somebody buys a ticket from the London Midland website, or a London Midland machine, or a London Midland ticket office or on a route served by London Midland, they could all be referred to as 'London Midland' tickets.

(I won't discuss Virgin trains in this context )
While London Midland isn't so bad, what about Cross-Country or East Coast etc.?

Some people, still, are only vaguely aware that there are separate train operating companies, and have no idea what they are called or even that they have different tickets these days.
It would be quite possible to mistake a TOC restriction for a geographical one - it is even listed on the ticket under 'Route'.

I'm sure someone must have had a conversation going 'this ticket is only valid on crosscountry trains'.
'yes, but we are going crosscountry'.

It isn't always possible to tell what company is running a particular train - and you would have to understand that it is relevant before you even look for it.

As regular users, it is easy to make assumptions that can cause confusion and more serious problems to the infrequent passenger.

While such naive travellers are probably a very small minority, it still makes sense to get the descriptions as clear as possible.

 

[RJ]

it could add confusion for people who are not familiar with the railways.

If somebody buys a ticket from the London Midland website, or a London Midland machine, or a London Midland ticket office or on a route served by London Midland, they could all be referred to as 'London Midland' tickets.

(I won't discuss Virgin trains in this context )
While London Midland isn't so bad, what about Cross-Country or East Coast etc.?

Some people, still, are only vaguely aware that there are separate train operating companies, and have no idea what they are called or even that they have different tickets these days.
It would be quite possible to mistake a TOC restriction for a geographical one - it is even listed on the ticket under 'Route'.

I'm sure someone must have had a conversation going 'this ticket is only valid on crosscountry trains'.
'yes, but we are going crosscountry'.

It isn't always possible to tell what company is running a particular train - and you would have to understand that it is relevant before you even look for it.

As regular users, it is easy to make assumptions that can cause confusion and more serious problems to the infrequent passenger.

While such naive travellers are probably a very small minority, it still makes sense to get the descriptions as clear as possible.

I still do not buy the concept that a normal might think that LM only would mean "LM priced tickets only."

 

[tony_mac]

I still do not buy the concept that a normal might think that LM only would mean "LM priced tickets only."

If that's your only complaint then yes, I agree, they wouldn't know who had priced the tickets.

 

[bb21]

I think some people are missing my point here. I was trying to say that the announcement can be misinterpreted in a number of ways. I might not have picked the best examples, and I think that tony_mac has put forward some much better ones than myself, however it does not change the fact that there is some room for confusion. This would mean that there is room for improvement, especially when a solution is not difficult to find.

For argument's sake, let's ignore the bit about LM-priced tickets which everyone seems to be picking on, it does not alter the fact that it is poorly worded, as it currently stands.