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Fantasy: If you could re-design HS2 ...

Shrop

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The Channel Tunnel Act was passed in 1987. The French had LGV Nord open in 1993, in advance of the tunnel opening. Construction of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link (now known as HS1) wasn't approved until 1996. The project had to be rescued by the government in 1998 and didn't open in full until 2007. It certainly wasn't smooth sailing.
You're talking about the route into St Pancras. The Channel Tunnel was opened with a slow route into Waterloo in 1994, and at least those trains ran at high speed once in France.
Yes, HS1 was far from perfect, but at least we knew that the St Pancras route was always going to be several years after the tunnel opened.
HS2 is in a different league when it comes to a shameful and disastrous project.
 
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BrianW

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The Channel Tunnel Act was passed in 1987. The French had LGV Nord open in 1993, in advance of the tunnel opening. Construction of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link (now known as HS1) wasn't approved until 1996. The project had to be rescued by the government in 1998 and didn't open in full until 2007. It certainly wasn't smooth sailing.
Indeed, and we were in 'Europe' then.

IIRC Justine Greening's idea for 'HS2' was to reinstate the Paddington- Birmingham route via Old Oak and High Wycombe. Linking to HS1 may have facilitated travel from upcountry to 'the continent' but now that's not even possible from Ashford INTERNATIONAL. Harold Wilson 'dumped' the Chunnel for ConcordE, and Thatcher said NO, NO, NO to almost everything Europe.

Fantasy line? Indeed- dream on ...
 

The Ham

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After today's news, your take on HS2 might be a little stretched even for the optimistic among us.
Yes, people have a habit of accepting things once completed, as proved by HS1, but HS2 is a whole different story.
HS1 wasn't decimated.
Neither did it go over budget by several hundred percent.
Nor was it delayed for years. And years. And years.
By the time HS2 is opened, many of us who had looked forward to using it will be past having the need to do so. And we'll be suffering financially as successive Governments try to claw back its ever increasing costs.
It will be a fair bit harder to be so forgiving of earlier doubts with a scheme that has been so incredibly badly managed.

Two of the specific elements which were part of the issue are mentioned in the reporting from the BBC (note; the quotes are not in the same order as the article has them, but in an order which suits me):


1) that planning reform was needed as without it a council could block approvals almost on a whim, for example blocking planning due to 60 lorries in a 12 week period, at 10 a fortnight that's only about double what we have for waste collection over a fortnight (1 general waste, 1 glass, 2 food waste and 1 other recycling) and even without food waste is only about 3 times thenumber from a very low base.

That's something we've got to live with ongoing and not just for 12 weeks (note I'm not suggesting our waste collection is an issue, rather that what was being asked wasn't much more than household waste collection and we couldn't object to the volume of waste collection):

The final vote for the first leg of HS2 between London and Birmingham was won by more than 350 votes in October 2013. The bill was supported across the main parties, and ministers understood HS2 had a clear road ahead.

"I was told that [the bill] basically gave the planning approval," says Patrick McLoughlin, who was the Transport Secretary between 2012 and 2016.

"Of course, it subsequently turns out that that was not the case."

MPs backed the first part of HS2 with cross-bench support from Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems

In reality, the hybrid bill only offered "deemed planning permission" - HS2 say they have since needed to acquire more than 8,000 further permissions from councils and other agencies.

It hasn't always been given.

Take the case of Dobbins Lane in Buckinghamshire. In April, the local council considered planning permission for HS2 to upgrade a farm track running into a nearby field. This work was needed in order to build an underground box to monitor groundwater levels, which in turn was a requirement of a tunnel being dug through the nearby hills. Without it, HS2 warned, delays could cost tens of millions.

But more than 800 local residents signed a petition against works because of a temporary increase in road traffic: 60 lorries would need to reach the site during a 12 week period.

And the request for planning permission was rejected - another potential cost added.

Ed Lister, who worked as Deputy Mayor of London and later as Boris Johnson's chief of staff, says the planning system is to blame

Ed Lister, who was Deputy Mayor of London between 2011 and 2016 and later served as Chief of Staff to Prime Minister Boris Johnson, blames the UK's planning system.

"You've got to break that log-jam," he argues. "If these are your big projects, then they have to go through."

He wants changes to the judicial review system to make it harder to frustrate projects such as HS2 through the courts.


2) that costs associated with getting MP's on side appeared to have no limit, with "£100 million being added in an afternoon":

Much of the route cut through rural constituencies, represented mostly by Conservative MPs, who made it clear to then-Prime Minister David Cameron that their approval for the project would require serious negotiation and compromise.

Ministers picked something unusual to make it happen: a hybrid bill, only the third of its kind enacted since 1992.

These allow MPs to vote on whether a piece of infrastructure should go ahead, but those directly affected are given the right to petition against it and ask for details to be changed.

HS2 had to run through mostly Conservative rural constituencies, where many MPs told David Cameron they'd only support it if major compromises were made

Councils, businesses and individuals made their case in front of a government committee asking for everything from noise barriers to financial compensation for communities losing green space. Last-minute negotiations often took place in the corridors outside.

The approach meant the bill was flexible - but critics have argued it was also needlessly complex and expensive.

Sir Geoffrey Clifton Brown was a Conservative MP and was one of the committee members who heard out petitions. "I remember very clearly one of the Secretaries of State for Transport, after an afternoon session, say, well done, Geoffrey, you've just cost us another couple of hundred million this afternoon."

A spreadsheet shows the thousands of assurances which were added as a result - among them, £250,000 to insulate a church, £500,000 for a new park (on top of an extra £10m for a community fund), as well as £10,000 to renovate a listed drinking fountain.

Vast cost was added in order to avoid or compensate for individual inconvenience.

One of the most expensive parts of these measures were the tunnels. Through public consultation and the hybrid bill, the design now features so many of them - along with noise barriers and cuttings, where track is laid below ground level - that on a 49-minute journey from London to Birmingham passengers will only have a view of the countryside for nine.

HS2 Ltd, the company created by the Department for Transport, accepts it failed to keep overall costs under control and says delivery has not matched what it describes as the unrealistic early expectations.

In another BBC article it picks up two other points:


3) more planning time, with good project management being design slow build fast:

The chair of the Transport Committee, Ruth Cadbury, said the problem with HS2 was "not just the speed, but also that spades were in the ground before the project had been fully designed, permits granted and so on".

"It broke the mantra of major projects, which is 'plan slow and build fast'," she told the BBC's Today programme.

Cadbury said that from the start "there was such an urgency from politicians of the time to get on with it" that the full specification of the project and all the risks associated with it had not been worked out.

4) less political interference, or changing political priorities, which have been reported over the years with each change resulting in more design costs often with the goal of saving money but most likely after (say) 3 design changes the cost savings would likely be limited:

This latest report, set to be published this week, is authored by former National Security Adviser Sir Stephen Lovegrove and has considered the implications for the civil service and public sector.

It is expected to agree with a previous review, external that HS2's so-called "original sins" included changing political priorities and ballooning costs.

let's look at what was said in the post you quoted:
HS2 is a great idea, and I wouldn’t change the route. It just needed the planning permission reforms first, a tighter oversight on cost, more planning time and less political interference.

Once it’s completed, everyone will think it’s an obviously great idea that we’ll be proud of for decades, unless they throw the baby out with the bath water and cut too many costs and benefits.

1 planning reforms
2 tighter control of costs
3 more planning time
4 less political interference

That covers the main elements in the reporting, as such, hardly a stretched view, arguably, with those elements in place from the start HS2 could have been much closer to the original budget, and much more likely to have been delivered closer to the original timeline.

Yes, it's happening in the UK, so would have been late and over budget, that's taken as read, but not by the margins we are currently seeing.

For example, planning for national infrastructure projects should be assumed to be given, planning authorities may ask for clarification and then if there's still significant concerns of significant risk or harms they can request review by the planning inspectorate - i.e. the impact of 5 lorry movements a week isn't likely to be significant and even if it was isn't likely to cause significant risk or harms (it may do, in the right circumstances, hence the right to request a review, but that would likely require the council to justify why the review was required - and so the onus is on them to explain why).

Likewise, set a budget for the bribes support packages to get the MP's and communities on side. For example, reviewing the costs for one constituency and if it reached a certain threshold (based on population size within a given distance) accept that MP isn't going to support it and walk away without spending anything (ideally start somewhere where the MP was likely to oppose any change anyway and so their "loss" wouldn't be more of an issue than was expected).

Yes, there'll be a political cost, however, the remaining MP's and communities would want something rather than nothing and so would keep their wish lists limited.

Likewise, have full designs, which at the very least least included ground investigation. The designs are the expected design, but the tender is a design, build and operate one with any cost savings for the term of the operation being split 60:40 in favour of the operator over the government. Whilst extra costs would be covered 60:40 on the same ratio split.

In doing so, true cost savings are rewarded but building cheap to build twice would harm the contractor's profit margins.
 

Austriantrain

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How on earth can it take another 10 to 13 years to finish a line, where, Euston excepted, works seem to be progressing well?
 

Zomboid

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I always thought HS2 had too many terminal stations. I'm sure the design became what it did for good reasons, but personally I would have wanted to make the Manchester and Leeds stations into through stations so that they could be served by trains from the north as well as the south. Birmingham is less of an issue as the junction already permits that.
 

Bletchleyite

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I always thought HS2 had too many terminal stations. I'm sure the design became what it did for good reasons, but personally I would have wanted to make the Manchester and Leeds stations into through stations so that they could be served by trains from the north as well as the south. Birmingham is less of an issue as the junction already permits that.

The ideal would be through stations at both Birmingham and Manchester (with bays for terminating services too), but the cost makes it difficult.
 

Zomboid

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The ideal would be through stations at both Birmingham and Manchester (with bays for terminating services too), but the cost makes it difficult.
It probably does come down to cost, as the challenge of building new surface level approaches on both ends mean that a new city centre through station would probably need to be an OOC/ Lille style underground affair.

But it would also permit fewer junctions/ divergences and that might result in less route mileage overall, so perhaps an element of swings and roundabouts. Arguably a through station in Manchester could have permitted Leeds to be served via Manchester and the whole Eastern leg might have been unnecessary, except perhaps a link to the Birmingham - Derby line to allow Derby and Sheffield trains to be removed from (or more likely turned into stopping services on) the MML.
 

Shrop

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Money and the requirement to spread the cost so it reduces a yearly spend.
That sounds like nothing more than an excuse for a badly thought out project. We should never have got ourselves into this crazy situation. Further delays at this stage just underline how appalling the whole project has been.

The planning, political, legal, appeal and engineering approaches are all in need of serious review.
 

The Ham

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That sounds like nothing more than an excuse for a badly thought out project. We should never have got ourselves into this crazy situation. Further delays at this stage just underline how appalling the whole project has been.

The planning, political, legal, appeal and engineering approaches are all in need of serious review.

The thing is, the majority of those issues would be the same for any large project.

Whist some elements would be unique to HS2 any north south rail link would have likely encountered many of the same issues.
 

zwk500

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The thing is, the majority of those issues would be the same for any large project.

Whist some elements would be unique to HS2 any north south rail link would have likely encountered many of the same issues.
That does not absolve the project of the overspend and delays it has encountered.

Budget: Original Budget of £32bn (£42bn in today's prices) is now somewhere from £90bn to more than £100bn. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cz6e0vplgldt
Time:
Since April 2019, HS2 Ltd has been planning on the basis of a more realistic schedule for the programme. The Department and HS2 Ltd now expect partial Phase One services to start between 2029 and 2033, with full services from Euston starting between 2031 and 2036, at least five years later than planned (paragraphs 2.4 to 2.6, 2.8 and 2.9).

Now partial opening is 2033-36 and Full opening of Phase 1 2040-43. So we are talking about being 3-9 years late, with significant delay between the partial and full overlap when those windows originally overlapped.

Whichever way you cut it, these are catastrophic failings.
 

SynthD

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I always thought HS2 had too many terminal stations. I'm sure the design became what it did for good reasons, but personally I would have wanted
There's a key difference: is it what the passenger demand is calling for or what people looking at a network diagram want?
That sounds like nothing more than an excuse for a badly thought out project.
How do you rule out the option that it's just Treasury freaking out over spending in a single year? They've done this for non-rail projects too. It's still short-sighted politics worth criticising, but it's disconnected to the quality of the project that is being funded. We can see different behaviour with a fixed date project, like the Olympics.
That does not absolve the project of the overspend and delays it has encountered.
I would like to see the change in cost split up into causes. I think it's mostly construction inflation and political changes, which overlap and make each other worse. I have not seen, not looked, for any reason to believe that the later opening dates have come from the project, rather than the politicians wanting to spend less in a year.
 

Johnnie2Sheds

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With hindsight? Get the Chinese to build it for us. They seem to have managed to screw together about 20000 km of high speed railway in the last couple of decades. If they had started at the same time as this weeks clowns running HS2, this forum would be arguing about the seat moquette pattern and the chuffing trolley service.
 

The Planner

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Heidi Alexander should take responsibility and resign.
Not sure what that solves, she has been in post 18 months.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

With hindsight? Get the Chinese to build it for us. They seem to have managed to screw together about 20000 km of high speed railway in the last couple of decades. If they had started at the same time as this weeks clowns running HS2, this forum would be arguing about the seat moquette pattern and the chuffing trolley service.
That is nonsense though, how would the Chinese get past all the issues in design etc so far?
 

zwk500

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Heidi Alexander should take responsibility and resign.
Why? Why should the last 14 years of Transport Secretaries be let off the hook but the one that's been in the job a year or so take all the fall?
I would like to see the change in cost split up into causes. I think it's mostly construction inflation and political changes, which overlap and make each other worse. I have not seen, not looked, for any reason to believe that the later opening dates have come from the project, rather than the politicians wanting to spend less in a year.
I also would like to see the split. According to the bbc:
Two-thirds of the increase in cost is due to an underestimate of costs by the previous government, inefficient delivery, and to works being missed from the scope of the original plan, according to the government. One third of the increase is due to inflation, Alexander said.
I haven't read the full report but the management of the project do come in for some criticism as well.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

With hindsight? Get the Chinese to build it for us. They seem to have managed to screw together about 20000 km of high speed railway in the last couple of decades. If they had started at the same time as this weeks clowns running HS2, this forum would be arguing about the seat moquette pattern and the chuffing trolley service.
The Chinese would have encountered their first planning permission meeting and walked off the job.
 

Zomboid

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a key difference: is it what the passenger demand is calling for or what people looking at a network diagram want?
Well this is a crayon thread, but passengers probably don't care that much if a station is a terminal or through station, but in my opinion the HS2 design was heavily weighted towards point to point operation, and the Leeds and Manchester stations could only be accessed from the south.

I'm sure that was for a reason, but my first draft would have made them through stations accessible from both ends, reducing the number of HS2 junctions and probably the number of interfaces with the classic network.
 

BogiePicker

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Given:

- Chris Gibb's comments re 286m trains,
- the money spent for the capacity at Curzon St (not to mention opportunity cost of prime real estate)
- The number of platforms at New St - 8 ~300m legacy LNWR through platforms

I think it would have been better to have built one (or even two) 'Birmingham crossrails' to divert the London Midland LNWRs out of New St. The optioneering report, however, never considered this as an option, no doubt in part because of the Procrustean insistence on 400m platforms.

Crossrail showed the capability of a simple two platform station to soak up huge S Bahn volumes. Tottenham Court Road is 66m pa, 2x New St, which is ~70% Midlands traffic.

Stuttgart21 showed a high revealed preference for a high capacity through station. With Birmingham New St you already have a ~300m platform Stuttgart21 for free, with a 4x platform Midland station tacked on as a bonus. Stuttgart21 has fourtracked throats at each end too so some rationalising and maximising through running could have helped optimise throughput.

Crosscountry passenger volumes are comparable to LNER, Avanti, so even with a new HS system, maximising the use of New St for Cross-country would have been a very valuable opportunity but is one which has been utterly squandered.
The ideal would be through stations at both Birmingham and Manchester (with bays for terminating services too), but the cost makes it difficult.
 

Krokodil

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The thing is, the majority of those issues would be the same for any large project.
We do need to solve these issues if we are ever to build a large project again.

That is nonsense though, how would the Chinese get past all the issues in design etc so far?
If they were building it back home they presumably wouldn't let the Dibley Parish Council drag things out over one lorry per day for 2.5 months. This is the lesson that needs to be taken, a piece of national infrastructure should override the normal planning controls.
 

blimmo

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This is the lesson that needs to be taken, a piece of national infrastructure should override the normal planning controls.
They literally passed a bill to do that that turned out to not, in fact, do that. Imo this is the biggest failing (and luckily the simplest to fix!).
 

zwk500

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They literally passed a bill to do that that turned out to not, in fact, do that. Imo this is the biggest failing (and luckily the simplest to fix!).
Out of interest, who is 'They' (i.e. which govermnet), which bill, and did it ever become and Act?
 

blimmo

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From post #423 above:
The final vote for the first leg of HS2 between London and Birmingham was won by more than 350 votes in October 2013. The bill was supported across the main parties, and ministers understood HS2 had a clear road ahead.

"I was told that [the bill] basically gave the planning approval," says Patrick McLoughlin, who was the Transport Secretary between 2012 and 2016.

"Of course, it subsequently turns out that that was not the case."

MPs backed the first part of HS2 with cross-bench support from Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems

In reality, the hybrid bill only offered "deemed planning permission" - HS2 say they have since needed to acquire more than 8,000 further permissions from councils and other agencies.
The quoted article is suggesting that if the hybrid bill had actually truly overridden the requirement for planning permission this would have prevented some of the issues mentioned in this thread.
 

Johnnie2Sheds

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That is nonsense though, how would the Chinese get past all the issues in design etc so far?
Perhaps a good couple of examples would be not having to dig a twenty odd mile tunnel to shut a few hundred conservative voters up? Or maybe providing a very expensive bat cave to shut the tree huggers up.
The Chinese would have encountered their first planning permission meeting and walked off the job.
Within their construction area, planning consent would be automatic. Problem solved!
 

Shrop

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The thing is, the majority of those issues would be the same for any large project.

Whist some elements would be unique to HS2 any north south rail link would have likely encountered many of the same issues.
Yes indeed, but all of this is highly embarrassing when talking to engineers from almost all foreign countries where HSR has been developed far more successfully.

It's pretty well led from the top - you only have to watch PMQ to see just where priorities lie in the mindset of a worryingly large proportion of MPs. Most of them, especially those at the very top, will do anything for a cheap joke, it's far more important to most of them than genuinely advancing the UK economy is. In turn this is all too often reminiscent of the UK culture, it certainly sets an appalling example.

Most of the media is no better, distorting at will just for a cheap biased headline. Meanwhile most business leaders are focussed almost exclusively on their own profits, often placing little or no importance at all on the success of the project they have been appointed to serve - unless it's for the sake of appearance.

People in other countries seem to have a far, far better understanding of the need to be genuinely loyal to their country. The tendency of people in the UK is too often to simply be self-centred. So yes, we have many issues in the UK, but because of the way that our culture is, sadly we're probably doomed not to change any time soon.

Am I just ranting and wrong?
 

WAO

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ISTM that the real problem lay in the lack of DfT/Treasury senior Civil Service competence. It seems that they advised the then SoS (Mcloughlan, a pro-rail ex miner, in spite of being a Tory) that Planning Permission would not be a problem, when defective legislation drafting meant that it actually was. Also contracts were open ended, cost plus and poorly supervised - the bat tunnel is only one example of excessive and unquestioned environmental provision.

The way ahead now has to be financial, as outright cancellation has been considered. If it really is cheaper at least to reach B'ham than to cut and run, then life costs particularly should be used where confidently known. For example (the well informed) Bald Rick has pointed out that slab track is thus cheaper that low first cost ballast and is future proof. The first generation of rolling stock if "off the peg", though marginally slower, would be quicker into service, cheaper and of lower risk than novel "769" technology.

The reputation of the DfT, HS2 Ltd and its contractors and by extension the whole rail industry is at stake.

WAO
 

The Planner

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Perhaps a good couple of examples would be not having to dig a twenty odd mile tunnel to shut a few hundred conservative voters up? Or maybe providing a very expensive bat cave to shut the tree huggers up.

Within their construction area, planning consent would be automatic. Problem solved!
I'll ask again, how would the Chinese building it get around that? Planning law suddenly just doesn't apply to them.
 

Brubulus

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Yes - but surface construction in the UK will always be exceptionally expensive versus Europe due to high infrastructure density and land values. Just build a massive prefabricated modular viaduct, maybe with a Victorian style render on it, even with compensation for the people whose homes genuinely lose value, would probably still be worth it. Thankfully the planning process for this sort of thing has been reformed to an extent, which means the exceptional levels of delay previously seen should be able to be avoided. Furthermore tunnels should probably be a 13-14M single bore, at 300-320kmh.
 

WAO

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I'll ask again, how would the Chinese building it get around that? Planning law suddenly just doesn't apply to them.
Having worked a little in China, my impression is that they think in straight lines and address problems directly. They would not have started HS2 without a complete T&WO and final, single minded, hard nosed decisions on mitigations. They don't muddle.

They still have lobbies which can be obstructive, although they may also be in the state system, or now, a rich company. Individuals are not slow in showing displeasure and provided it is not political, I have seen Chinese armed police walk away from dissent, leaving the bureaucrats to suffer.

WAO
 

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