Travelcards and NRCoC Condition 19

[RJ]

TfL is a division of the GLA, which is the local authority for Greater London.

Condition 19 of the current, ever changing NRCoC states;

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

Now, Travelcards issued on RSP stock are obviously not issued on TfL's behalf. But, Oyster Cards and Freedom Passes are.

Would welcome any evidence that determines conclusively, whether or not Travelcards issued on Oyster may be used in such a manner that 19(c) permits?

 

[FGWman]

As travelcards are a zonal product they are usually used in combination with a boundary ticket so 19(a) is the one that normally applies.

Do you have a specific problem in mind ?

 

[First class]

edit - mistaken post

 

[RJ]

As travelcards are a zonal product they are usually used in combination with a boundary ticket so 19(a) is the one that normally applies.

Do you have a specific problem in mind ?

Use on intercity trains beyond the Network area borders, so more than one split required.

 

[AlterEgo]

Depends on the situation, but Virgin were forced to accept a combination of an Oyster season ticket and a boundary zone ticket split as per Condition 19 a couple of years ago, after much argument and dispute.

So, ATOC hath spake on this issue before!

 

[RJ]

Depends on the situation, but Virgin were forced to accept a combination of an Oyster season ticket and a boundary zone ticket split as per Condition 19 a couple of years ago, after much argument and dispute.

So, ATOC hath spake on this issue before!

19(a) has been the same for quite some time, though it's only recently it has acknowledged "special conditions" such as prohibition on HeX/HS1 and time constraints on FGW. I expect that at the time of the incident, it would have been a valid combination if the passenger was only travelling as far as MKC with a BZ - MKC/Wolverton/Northampton ticket.

19(c), the wording keeps changing - now, it specifically prohibits tickets issued on behalf of a local authority. Was said person only going to Milton Keynes, or were they going beyond with additional splits?

 

[button_boxer]

As far as I'm aware period travelcards (7 days, one month or longer) count as season tickets for the purposes of 19(c) but one day travelcards don't.

 

[RJ]

Period travelcards (7 days, one month or longer) count as season tickets for the purposes of 19(c), so can be combined with other point-to-point tickets without the requirement to stop at the changeover point(s).

One day travelcards do not count as season tickets, but if you have a travelcard covering, for example zones 1-2, you can combine it with a ticket from boundary zone 2 to Peterborough on a non-stopping train under 19(a) as both travelcards and boundary zone tickets are zonal. You can't combine a one day travelcard with a point to point ticket (e.g. travelcard for zones 1-2 with a ticket starting from Finsbury Park) as the former is not a season ticket and the latter is not a zonal ticket.

We're not discussing the general ethos of Condition 19 - I'm specifically interested in whether ATOC consider Travelcards issued on Oyster acceptable or not for 19(c).

 

[yorkie]

A Travelcard Season is a Season irrespective of the medium it is issued on. The product remains the same regardless.

"It is up to the Train Operating Company to be able to read your Oyster card, which is a valid travel card. What counts is the message, not the medium." - Roger Ford, Informed Sources 2005.

 

[Mojo]

Section 9 of the NRCoC states that a ticket can be issued electronically and this electronic ticket may be stored on an Oyster card. The card itself may be issued on behalf of TfL, but the ticket is just as much issued on behalf of TfL as a paper travelcard is.

 

[RJ]

Ok, in that case I'll shift the focus to the product, rather than the stock used. Is the Travelcard issued by TOCs on behalf of TfL, thus ineligible for use under 19(c)?

 

[yorkie]

A Travelcard Season counts as a genuine Season ticket, this is in contrast with PTE Seasons for any other area, which all count as non-Seasons.

 

[RJ]

Fair enough, but the wording makes a distinction between PTEs and local authorities. Would you happen to have any examples of seasons issued on behalf of local authorities? I suppose the nCard is an example issued on behalf of a PTE.

 

[Mojo]

The Freedom Travelpass (a multimodal bus and train ticket) in Greater Bristol is issued on behalf of the four unitary authorities.

 

[island]

What if you had your Oyster season ticket issued at a NR station, such as LEW? *stir*

 

[swt_passenger]

Ok, in that case I'll shift the focus to the product, rather than the stock used. Is the Travelcard issued by TOCs on behalf of TfL, thus ineligible for use under 19(c)?

Travelcards are issued jointly. They have both TfL and National Rail symbology.

Most recent years, when TfL have issued the Mayor's fares directive, they explain that travelcards are joint products, and the rise is governed by whatever RPI+% has been agreed by ATOC/DfT, rather than Tfl's figure.

The Jan 2010 fares directive included this statement:

"Travelcard prices, which must be agreed with the Department for Transport and the Train Operators, will generally be frozen across the board, with certain important exceptions as set out below."

To me that suggests it quite clearly isn't a 'TfL only' product - otherwise it would go up each year by the same amount as TfL's fares policy...