What would an ideal recast of the South Western routes look like?

[MatthewE707]

If there was capacity to go up to 20tph - so a train every 3 minutes

If we went to 20tph on the slows, it would be simple (at least from a simple perspective, I haven't looked at the actual feasibility of it), to slightly adapt the current pattern to get:
00/30 Epsom
03/33 Guildford via Cobham
06/36 Hampton Court
09/39 Guildford via Epsom
12/42 Shepperton
15/45 Chessington South
18/48 Woking
21/51 Surbiton
24/54 Dorking
27/57 Waterloo via Kingston

Then it's pretty much a 15 minute repeating pattern, with a train every 15 minutes each of semi-fast to Surbiton, stopping to Surbiton, via Kingston, beyond Epsom, and then the Epsom and Chessington services sort of fit together

 

[PTR 444]

If we went to 20tph on the slows, it would be simple (at least from a simple perspective, I haven't looked at the actual feasibility of it), to slightly adapt the current pattern to get:
00/30 Epsom
03/33 Guildford via Cobham
06/36 Hampton Court
09/39 Guildford via Epsom
12/42 Shepperton
15/45 Chessington South
18/48 Woking
21/51 Surbiton
24/54 Dorking
27/57 Waterloo via Kingston

Then it's pretty much a 15 minute repeating pattern, with a train every 15 minutes each of semi-fast to Surbiton, stopping to Surbiton, via Kingston, beyond Epsom, and then the Epsom and Chessington services sort of fit together

A very good proposal, although I’d personally send the 00/30 Epsom terminators to Chessington South, and send the 21/51 Surbiton terminators to Guildford via Cobham, with the 03/33 becoming an additional 2tph to Woking.

 

[London Trains]

I can't comment on whether that is feasible in terms of pathing, but overall it looks good. Two tweaks I'd suggest are:
1. Terminate the Guildford via Cobham service at Effingham Junction, and have that one as all stops between Wimbledon and Woking. I can't see that the little villages between Effingham and Guildford need 4tph. (Suggesting that rather than the via Epsom service terminates there in order to get links between Guildford and Epsom/Leatherhead)
2. Send one of your Waterloo via Kingston pairs to Shepperton instead. There's surely enough population along that line to warrant 4tph. And it saves worrying about whether there's capacity on the Richmond lines.

If there was capacity to go up to 20tph - so a train every 3 minutes, rather than having some 4 minute gaps in your schedule, I'd add an extra 2tph to Woking, to give those stations a train a regular 15 minute frequency, and allowing removal of the Walton/Weybridge/West Byfleet stops from the Alton/Basingstoke services to speed them up.

In regards to the tweaks you suggest:

1. I don't think the villages between Effingham Junction and Guildford would be happy about losing their fastest service into Waterloo, but more importantly, it would break the direct link between Guildford and Surbiton, which is used by quite a lot of people travelling between Guildford and Kingston (about 10 mins away from Surbiton on the bus), so I would probably leave the Guildford via Cobham service as it is. I would suggest that the Guildford via Epsom services should skip Horsley and Clandon though, as they don't need 4tph as you suggest, and it would speed up journeys between Epsom and Guildford.

2. I think 4tph around the Kingston loop would be preferable to 4tph to Shepperton - there are already a lot of local journeys taking place around the Kingston loop, in particular a lot of inward demand to Kingston itself, and the increased frequency around the loop would encourage more people to use the railway for these journeys instead of driving or having to deal with the horribly unreliable bus services in the area like the 65. The Kingston loop services are also quite resource efficient, with the same service catering for people travelling out of Waterloo, making local journeys around the loop and travelling into Waterloo. The Shepperton branch in comparison is quite quiet after Hampton, and I don't think increasing it to 4tph would be as beneficial as increasing the Kingston loop services to 4tph.

I agree about adding an extra 2tph to Woking if possible, but I would be a bit wary of running 20tph all day, as it would leave very little resilience in the timetable.

 

[Zomboid]

Having lots of Woking terminators means lots of interacting with the fast lines to get to the middle platform - though unless they carry on towards Farnham there's an unavoidable interaction somewhere along the way.

What kind of gap in the fast lines schedule is needed to get a train across?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

1. Terminate the Guildford via Cobham service at Effingham Junction, and have that one as all stops between Wimbledon and Woking. I can't see that the little villages between Effingham and Guildford need 4tph. (Suggesting that rather than the via Epsom service terminates there in order to get links between Guildford and Epsom/Leatherhead)

And break the direct link between Guildford and Surbiton (read Kingston) which is a much bigger flow than Guildford to Leatherhead or Epsom?

Doesn’t make a huge amount of sense that idea I’m afraid.

 

[DelW]

Having said that, I would much prefer to see Portsmouth journey times speeded up rather than slowed down. How about this as an alternative:

2tph Waterloo -> Woking -> Guildford -> Haslemere -> Petersfield -> Havant -> Portsmouth and Southsea -> Portsmouth Harbour
2tph Waterloo -> Woking -> Guildford -> all stations to Portsmouth Harbour
Extend 2pth Waterloo-Woking stoppers to Worplesdon -> Guildford -> Farncombe -> Godalming.
(This would require the flyover at Woking to be built, and probably a terminating platform at Godalming).

I'm a bit late responding to this, but I don't think anyone else has ...

Re the suggestion in bold, geography is against it. Godalming station platforms are on a reverse curve on a narrow ledge between the valley of the River Ock and a steep hill. There's no room for any widening without substantial demolition (including of non-railway properties) and earthworks.

The long-closed goods yard was in a separate location elsewhere in the town, now disconnected from the railway and built over. (It was on the site of the original terminus of the line from Woking, before it was extended to Havant on a different alignment).

 

[PTR 444]

Been thinking about the SWML and Windsor Line metro routes lately, and it has got me wondering how you could achieve a standardised 4tph service on each of the branches. Assuming 20tph on the SWML slows out of Waterloo is feasible, I would be looking at 8tph going towards Kingston, 8tph going towards Motspur Park and 4tph going towards Surbiton, with an additional 4tph to Surbiton starting on the fast lines then switching to the slows. I would envisage that such a service pattern is feasible:

SWML slow lines (all services call at all stations en route)
00/30 Chessington South
03/33 Shepperton
06/36 Guildford via Cobham
09/39 Guildford via Epsom
12/42 Waterloo via Kingston
15/45 Chessington South
18/48 Shepperton
21/51 Hampton Court
24/54 Dorking
27/57 Waterloo via Kingston

While this does provide 4tph for each route, combined sections where 8tph run are not at even intervals. This could be fixed once Crossrail 2 comes on line since you can transfer some of the branches onto it.

SWML fast to Surbiton, then all stations beyond
12/42 Basingstoke
27/57 Alton

Under this proposal, there would no longer be a Waterloo - Woking stopper on the SWML, since all trains would continue beyond. The bay platform at Woking would be reused for my proposed duplication of the Chertsey service via Hounslow, as listed below.

Windsor Lines
03/33 Windsor & Eton Riverside
06/36 Waterloo via Kingston
12/42 Woking via Hounslow
18/48 Reading
21/51 Waterloo via Kingston
27/57 Weybridge via Hounslow

Kingston and Hounslow trains call at all stations en route.
Windsor and Reading trains run limited stop to Staines, calling at Vauxhall, Clapham Junction, Richmond, Twickenham, Whitton and Feltham.

Since the line is only two track with frequent level crossings, there is less scope for adding additional Waterloo trains here. The Hounslow rounder is withdrawn, but I would extend the proposed West London Orbital service from Hounslow to Twickenham to replace the missing link.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Been thinking about the SWML and Windsor Line metro routes lately, and it has got me wondering how you could achieve a standardised 4tph service on each of the branches. Assuming 20tph on the SWML slows out of Waterloo is feasible, I would be looking at 8tph going towards Kingston, 8tph going towards Motspur Park and 4tph going towards Surbiton, with an additional 4tph to Surbiton starting on the fast lines then switching to the slows. I would envisage that such a service pattern is feasible:

SWML slow lines (all services call at all stations en route)
00/30 Chessington South
03/33 Shepperton
06/36 Guildford via Cobham
09/39 Guildford via Epsom
12/42 Waterloo via Kingston
15/45 Chessington South
18/48 Shepperton
21/51 Hampton Court
24/54 Dorking
27/57 Waterloo via Kingston

While this does provide 4tph for each route, combined sections where 8tph run are not at even intervals. This could be fixed once Crossrail 2 comes on line since you can transfer some of the branches onto it.

SWML fast to Surbiton, then all stations beyond
12/42 Basingstoke
27/57 Alton

Under this proposal, there would no longer be a Waterloo - Woking stopper on the SWML, since all trains would continue beyond. The bay platform at Woking would be reused for my proposed duplication of the Chertsey service via Hounslow, as listed below.

Windsor Lines
03/33 Windsor & Eton Riverside
06/36 Waterloo via Kingston
12/42 Woking via Hounslow
18/48 Reading
21/51 Waterloo via Kingston
27/57 Weybridge via Hounslow

Kingston and Hounslow trains call at all stations en route.
Windsor and Reading trains run limited stop to Staines, calling at Vauxhall, Clapham Junction, Richmond, Twickenham, Whitton and Feltham.

Since the line is only two track with frequent level crossings, there is less scope for adding additional Waterloo trains here. The Hounslow rounder is withdrawn, but I would extend the proposed West London Orbital service from Hounslow to Twickenham to replace the missing link.

This slows the Alton trains down massively. Farnham en route is a sizeable place.

Also how do you get from Addlestone and Chertsey to London? Currently to take the train to Weybridge and change there (the journey time is around 30 minutes quicker than on the slow service via Hounslow). There’s more people on those services that want to go from Addlestone and Chertsey to Surbiton and London than there is Woking.

 

[PTR 444]

This slows the Alton trains down massively. Farnham en route is a sizeable place.

Alton trains could skip Esher, Hersham and Byfleet & New Haw, if demand for those stations doesn’t warrant 4tph.

Also how do you get from Addlestone and Chertsey to London? Currently to take the train to Weybridge and change there (the journey time is around 30 minutes quicker than on the slow service via Hounslow). There’s more people on those services that want to go from Addlestone and Chertsey to Surbiton and London than there is Woking.

I propose to keep the Weybridge terminators in addition to the Woking ones, providing a 4tph frequency for Waterloo - Hounslow - Addlestone.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

SWML slow lines (all services call at all stations en route)
00/30 Chessington South
03/33 Shepperton
06/36 Guildford via Cobham
09/39 Guildford via Epsom
12/42 Waterloo via Kingston
15/45 Chessington South
18/48 Shepperton
21/51 Hampton Court
24/54 Dorking
27/57 Waterloo via Kingston

Looking at this, afraid 20tph isn’t possible on the slow lines from Waterloo. 18tph which was done in the High Peaks in the ‘04 timetable is the absolute maximum.

You need to generally have around 4 x 4 minute headways in departure from Waterloo per hour which drops you down from 20tph all at 3 minute headways to 18tph.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Been thinking about the SWML and Windsor Line metro routes lately, and it has got me wondering how you could achieve a standardised 4tph service on each of the branches. Assuming 20tph on the SWML slows out of Waterloo is feasible, I would be looking at 8tph going towards Kingston, 8tph going towards Motspur Park and 4tph going towards Surbiton, with an additional 4tph to Surbiton starting on the fast lines then switching to the slows. I would envisage that such a service pattern is feasible:

SWML slow lines (all services call at all stations en route)
00/30 Chessington South
03/33 Shepperton
06/36 Guildford via Cobham
09/39 Guildford via Epsom
12/42 Waterloo via Kingston
15/45 Chessington South
18/48 Shepperton
21/51 Hampton Court
24/54 Dorking
27/57 Waterloo via Kingston

While this does provide 4tph for each route, combined sections where 8tph run are not at even intervals. This could be fixed once Crossrail 2 comes on line since you can transfer some of the branches onto it.

SWML fast to Surbiton, then all stations beyond
12/42 Basingstoke
27/57 Alton

Under this proposal, there would no longer be a Waterloo - Woking stopper on the SWML, since all trains would continue beyond. The bay platform at Woking would be reused for my proposed duplication of the Chertsey service via Hounslow, as listed below.

Windsor Lines
03/33 Windsor & Eton Riverside
06/36 Waterloo via Kingston
12/42 Woking via Hounslow
18/48 Reading
21/51 Waterloo via Kingston
27/57 Weybridge via Hounslow

Kingston and Hounslow trains call at all stations en route.
Windsor and Reading trains run limited stop to Staines, calling at Vauxhall, Clapham Junction, Richmond, Twickenham, Whitton and Feltham.

Since the line is only two track with frequent level crossings, there is less scope for adding additional Waterloo trains here. The Hounslow rounder is withdrawn, but I would extend the proposed West London Orbital service from Hounslow to Twickenham to replace the missing link.

Wouldn't this be best introduced in a separate thread, given that in your starting post you explicitly restricted this thread to:

For the purposes of this thread, Only the "country" services which run west of Woking are included.

But to answer this, I guess the big issue is, are we discussing a recast on current infrastructure or possible improvements with new infrastructure. Providing any kind of decent service on the Richmond lines is going to be almost impossible until something is done about the 2-tracks-with-level-crossings section between Barnes and Richmond

I certainly wouldn't want to see the services to Basingstoke/Alton slowed down - they are already extraordinarily slow as commuter trains covering that kind of distance. If anything, I'd be looking to speed them up and separate them from the metro services by having them run as fast as possible to Woking, with more frequent metro services to serve West Byfleet/Weybridge/Walton.

 

[The Ham]

I certainly wouldn't want to see the services to Basingstoke/Alton slowed down - they are already extraordinarily slow as commuter trains covering that kind of distance. If anything, I'd be looking to speed them up and separate them from the metro services by having them run as fast as possible to Woking, with more frequent metro services to serve West Byfleet/Weybridge/Walton.

Indeed, not only that, but it appears that these services are also providing the the capacity for the Woking stoppers.

 

[NCT]

Wouldn't this be best introduced in a separate thread, given that in your starting post you explicitly restricted this thread to:

I think an OP is allowed to evolve the contents of their own thread.

 

[PTR 444]

Wouldn't this be best introduced in a separate thread, given that in your starting post you explicitly restricted this thread to:

I acknowledge that I expanded the scope of this thread to include West Coastway services, and another member subsequently added SWML metro routes to which I replied. Where one set of infrastructure (in this case the SWML country lines) is co-dependent on another (SWML Metro, Coastway, Wessex etc), there is always going to be some overlap so I think it is natural that such a discussion will evolve from one to another over time.

Ideally, the SWML Metro, country and Windsor Line networks should be self-contained from each other, with everything west of Woking independent of everything to the east. The red herring is that the Woking bay platform (platform 3) where you would ideally terminate all Metro trains requires crossing the fast lines to access, which reduces capacity on them. If you want more stopping trains between Surbiton and Woking, you would either need to extend some of them on the slows to Alton/Basingstoke, or build the flyover and run them to Guildford. Even that option won’t separate the Metro trains from the fasts, but at least Woking - Guildford is less busy, so lower risk of conflicts.

As for the Windsor Line, I can’t see that getting any more trains until the level crossings are replaced. You could probably isolate the Kingston Loop from it at Twickenham/Richmond and replace it with extra trains to Reading, but I’m not sure how well that would go down with regular users of the route. There might be a better case for doing so if one of the Crossrail 2 branches runs to Twickenham at a much higher frequency than the existing Kingston rounder.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If we went to 20tph on the slows, it would be simple (at least from a simple perspective, I haven't looked at the actual feasibility of it), to slightly adapt the current pattern to get:
00/30 Epsom
03/33 Guildford via Cobham
06/36 Hampton Court
09/39 Guildford via Epsom
12/42 Shepperton
15/45 Chessington South
18/48 Woking
21/51 Surbiton
24/54 Dorking
27/57 Waterloo via Kingston

Then it's pretty much a 15 minute repeating pattern, with a train every 15 minutes each of semi-fast to Surbiton, stopping to Surbiton, via Kingston, beyond Epsom, and then the Epsom and Chessington services sort of fit together

Looking at this, afraid 20tph isn’t possible on the slow lines from Waterloo. 18tph which was done in the High Peaks in the ‘04 timetable is the absolute maximum.

You need to generally have around 4 x 4 minute headways in departure from Waterloo per hour (to allow for the conflicting Waterloo station crossing move in the throat that will always happen when you reset the platform ‘fan’ as you work from 1-6 and need to reset). This drops you down from 20tph all at 3 minute headways to 18tph.