boiledbeans2
Member
Why is it necessary to end services at 2000 on day 1 of the strike and start services at 0730 on day 2? If a non-striking driver is available, they could work until normal last train times on day 1?
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RMT strikes re: 4 day week
- Thread starter Watershed
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Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
I suspect it's because with very few services available the crowding would be at very dangerous levels - and also no guarantees that with only a handful of drivers available, one or more of them might become unwell and unable to complete their duties, making the situation even worse with little or no warning?
Tube strikes to go ahead as union accuses TfL of 'failing to engage in negotiations'
The RMT is pressing ahead with two more rounds of 24-hour walkouts next week
www.standard.co.uk
You can safely ignore The Standard, it's wrong as usual on a number of points.Tube strikes to go ahead as union accuses TfL of 'failing to engage in negotiations'
The RMT is pressing ahead with two more rounds of 24-hour walkouts next week
Reps meeting this morning at 10am triggered by the discussions had yesterday between RMT and LU. (ASLEF not involved.)
The various methods of communication between reps and members has been abuzz, more known later today.
BostonGeorge
Member
If I can share with you what was apparently sent in an ASLEF group chat...
Make of that what you will. I'd say they are failing to read the room, seeing as MANY ASLEF members aren't on board with the proposals.
Make of that what you will. I'd say they are failing to read the room, seeing as MANY ASLEF members aren't on board with the proposals.
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I guess no news is bad news?
Depends on what your perspective is on good news I suppose..
It's difficult to gauge, but the Reps (certainly on my line, which covers 2 RMT branches and 3 lines) have had literally hundreds of messages contributing to the discussion. That will have to be distilled into a decision whether to recommend to suspend strike action in the Reps meeting on Monday, where the vote will be taken on whether to suspend or go ahead.
Remember, the east end RMT Branch of the Pic, also includes Victoria Line drivers, who are more in favour of the 4DW I think. The west end RMT Branch of the Pic includes District line drivers. This is duplicated across the combine. So it is a complex decision.
This came about because the result of the meeting yesterday was that for the first time in 2 years LU have confirmed in writing that the 4DW will be voluntary. I think that may have swung the decision towards suspending May's strike action for some drivers, but there are also many questions that remain.
BostonGeorge
Member
I am struggling to understand how the organisation can have two groups of drivers (5DW and 4DW) operating on two different framework agreements, two separate operational rosters and two separate annual leave rotations. Admin struggles to cope as it is. It would be an absolute shambles.
I too am interested to understand how this will work.
This just seems like a regular re-publish demanded by the nature of news cycles. I mean, technically they're not wrong, the strikes are still on, but let's see what the announcement is after the reps meeting this morning.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Go look at a large commercial company that has done a lot of takeovers and you'll see tens or more of different contracts. Everything needing to be consistent is very much a unionised-industry thing.
Are we not getting close to the point for tomorrow’s strike, that even if it is cancelled, it’s too late to reinstate the normal service?
Snow1964
Established Member
Not much different to say BA airline, when it had legacy, euro fleet, mixed fleet workers.
HR knows how many in each group, so just plan rosters on basis of proportion in each staff pool. Not much different to splitting into those that prefer, nights or weekends, or school times etc. Just fit in the more restricted ones, then allocate the remainder afterwards
bramling
Veteran Member
The only way I could see it being done is having segregated duties for 4d and 5d people. Ideally you’d segregate this by depot, but that would introduce other issues in terms of how you’d actually achieve that.
But the moment you segregate duties it is going to introduce inflexibility. That is the reason everything tends to be consistent on the railway, because it works better operationally, not because of the unions.
LU has enough trouble delivering their timetable now, so how it would work with inconsistent types of duty remains to be seen.
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So say the duties are released on a Thursday as they are now. From that moment onwards coverage becomes the responsibility of the local depot management. A lot can and does change in that time (people going sick, people returning from sick, someone having an incident and having to be off the trains for a while, etc etc etc).
No, it’s not like the NR strikes where for various reasons the Tocs were unable to reinstate the service when strikes were pulled at short notice.
ln Jan 2024 a strike was suspended at the 11th hour (something like 18:00 for a strike where the early turn drivers and station staff were not expected to book on the following day) and the service operated largely fine the following day.
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The strikes can be cancelled at any point up to the start time.
LU contingency planning has meant that drivers who aren't rostered have been put onto "spare" duties, and their start times have been adjusted according to the start and end times of the proposed strikes.
So dozens of spares at my depot are due to start at 1145 on Tuesday (before the midday strike start), and start at 1215 on Wednesday (after the midday finish time), and so on. So the service will be impacted if the strikes are cancelled, but not to the level of an actual strike obviously.
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One of the guarantees that came from LU last week was that no driver who chooses to stay on a 5DW will suffer any detriment.
Moving depots to the other side of London would be a serious detriment to most, for me that is adding 50+ mins each way to my commute time.
The reduction of 5DW staff would be to my detriment when it comes to swapping annual leave, as the 4DW is reducing to 2x 2 week blocks and 2x 1 week blocks. (Remembering of course that annual leave is block booked by the company on a rotating roster - I can't 'choose' to take a particular week.)
LU have stated nobody need to move onto a 4DW, but when they only offer new trainees 4DW contracts, the combine will slowly transfer to total 4DW operation over time as people retire and move on to other roles.
It's not just a case of people doing 1 less day. All the parameters are changing. So I can currently drive 4hr 15m, the new 4DW parameters will allow for 5hr 15m. That means that all those 4DW duties will be unavailable to me as I'll refuse them due to them taking me over my driving parameters, as I do now. So any spare drivers will have to be segregated into each roster/duty. Designing duties around a single set of parameters (where trains are driven by multiple drivers) is already complex. Imagine trying to design duties where the 1st driver can driver for 4 hr 15m and the 2nd driver can do 5hr 15m, and throw changes into the mix from sickness, late book on, late running, etc.
Making separate depots 5DW and 4DW won't work either as far as I can see as the nature of running the service relies heavily on dynamic changes en route. It's called "Relief and Reform", whereby you surrender your train to another driver and they make it into their train number. Having an extra hour driving time makes a significant difference to the decision making process, but how is it known which driver is on which parameter?
Even the parameters around the start of duties are changing - each depot has agreed times for booking on, and walking to the platform. Those things are going under the 4DW. To give an example, a book on time of noon for a 4DW driver would mean being on a platform at 1200 and pick up a train at 1201. For 5DW, a noon book on could mean you can't pick up a train until 1219. So how would you accommodate a train sitting at Acton Town for 18 minutes unnattended? It is literally unimaginable.
Of course, none of this rostering hassle is my problem to sort, but it's obvious LU haven't given it much consideration as they thought with aslef's backing this proposal would sail through. When questioned over these exact issues and others, they have no comment other than "we can work through the issues over the coming months" - forgetting they've already had 2 years to find solutions.
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leonie13
Member
Which is code for "we don't really know how we can work through this, we'll just presume the TMs and Controllers won't mind working much harder - with less operational flexibility - as a result".
Strike suspended tomorrow according to BBC's Tom Edwards
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Is that in addition to the June dates for later in the month or instead?
bramling
Veteran Member
100%. This sums up LU all over. As you say, it will be dumped on those people who actually run the service, who will be left to pick up the pieces, like they have had to do for all the other issues LU has faced over recent years, such as insufficient recruitment levels, poor training, loss of expertise and an increasing subset of highly feral passengers.
starlight73
Member
starlight73
Member
Any hints on whether the strikes next week are still going ahead? (Edit - I mean if there is a chance progress in the talks)
this is what I got by email. (Previously I got an earlier email which said there would be disruption on Weds and Fri morning as the service returns to normal, but that has been removed.)
this is what I got by email. (Previously I got an earlier email which said there would be disruption on Weds and Fri morning as the service returns to normal, but that has been removed.)
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Despite suspending the strike action 2 weeks ago, over the 2 meetings since the suspension, LU haven't shown good faith in addressing the concerns of union members.
Reps met yesterday to discuss the issues and the feeling was that LU were simply wasting time, with no real movement.
Therefore the strikes remain on.
Reps met yesterday to discuss the issues and the feeling was that LU were simply wasting time, with no real movement.
Therefore the strikes remain on.
boiledbeans2
Member
Different strike timings this time though. Striking on 1 full day as opposed to 2 half days. Why the difference?
Dstock7080
Established Member
Little or no disruption on days 2 & 4.
Trains will run a full day and stable correctly, and be ready for the morning of day 2 and 4 with all staff available.
The previous strikes were 24hr too.
The previous timings caused significant disruption on some lines, but more importantly, lost revenue for the company — the BBC reported earnings at just 48% of normal that week (IIRC). However, as I mentioned up thread, those timings did allow the company to partially mitigate the strike's impact by adjusting the start times of pool drivers — who receive their duties on the Thursday before the Sunday start of the working week — to 11:15 on the Tuesday, thereby securing a full working day's output from each of them. Similarly, changing start times of drivers to 12:15 on Wednesday allowed for the same.
When the strikes were cancelled at the last minute, this did mean there were a lot of spare drivers sitting around. Those that did agree to an amended short notice start time were rewarded with very short duties.
When the strikes were cancelled at the last minute, this did mean there were a lot of spare drivers sitting around. Those that did agree to an amended short notice start time were rewarded with very short duties.
Mattplans
Member
Looks like it's all going ahead? Just received this email.
