Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[Lothianbus703]

Will the XLB’s have ADL or MCV bodywork?

ADL because XLB is a name made by Alexander Dennis, the full name is Enviro 400 XLB (Extra Long Bus).
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My personal opinion on where the new fleet should be numbered although I could be entirely wrong and this is all just made up.

Wright GB Kite (9)	1-9
10.8m evora (if any) (5)	96-100
12.9m evora (assumed) (15)	101-115
E400 XLB (60)	1001-1060 OR 1141-1200
ADL/BZL Double decker (40)	801-840
Wright Streetdeck Electroliner (20)	901-920

It would be nice if the fleetnumbers of the XLB's were 1001-1060 (to almost make them 1001-1140 aside from 1061/2) although this would require the renumbering of the 1051-1062 Gemini 3's.
I also dont think they would arrive late enough that all the ex Londons had been withdrawn, it really just depends on if they are replaced before these XLB's arrive.
My next preferred place which would be almost as consistent is 1141-1200.


Apologies for the long message just sharing my ideas!

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Yeah I can't see the ScotZEB order being cancelled, politically it's committed. Not like there has been massive change on that front.

It's a decent haul but it's going to leave 11 plate deckers in service beyond their 15th year as there was so many of those bought natively, before you add in the ex London's on top.

I thought there would be less singles and more doubles for that reason, but looks like shipping the 7900s early has gone up the priority list.

It will leave the 11 plates in service for another year, but come 2027 I suspect the remaining B9TL Gemini2’s will all be gone. As 927, 928, 1012, 1019 and 1020 are temporary these are not counted towards the fleet replacement. Aside from that, 104 B9TL’s need replaced. With 120 new buses due, and 5 of those 120 purely extra for the Airlink, the numbers suggest that’s what will happen. The extra 11 are probably a combination of minor increases and slack needed for greater use of EV’s.

There’s also the possibility that if 284-289 return that those are tied in with the kites at Central. The resulting cascades would mean that all of the 14 plate 7900’s would be withdrawn with the 4 Eclipse2’s currently at Longstone possibly picking up the Route Training work.

51-65 being replaced by Evora’s will probably displace 176-190 away from Marine which would then further withdraw most of the 64 plate 7900’s. A second order of 20 kites should then be able to replace the 5 7900’s and 176-190 that would remain by then.

I realise earlier, 1051-1062 will probably end up at Country in this plan.

 

[Resuwen]

1051-62 Should be renumbered into the 500s like the rest of the batch

 

[stevenedin]

Did 12 really do the X18 and then the 25 the next day at the end of April? I'm seeing that on bustimes not sure if it's a tracking error or not.

 

[ScotRail158725]

932 wrapped for Sunday (hopefully)

 

[scosutsut]

It will leave the 11 plates in service for another year, but come 2027 I suspect the remaining B9TL Gemini2’s will all be gone. As 927, 928, 1012, 1019 and 1020 are temporary these are not counted towards the fleet replacement. Aside from that, 104 B9TL’s need replaced. With 120 new buses due, and 5 of those 120 purely extra for the Airlink, the numbers suggest that’s what will happen. The extra 11 are probably a combination of minor increases and slack needed for greater use of EV’s.

There’s also the possibility that if 284-289 return that those are tied in with the kites at Central. The resulting cascades would mean that all of the 14 plate 7900’s would be withdrawn with the 4 Eclipse2’s currently at Longstone possibly picking up the Route Training work.

51-65 being replaced by Evora’s will probably displace 176-190 away from Marine which would then further withdraw most of the 64 plate 7900’s. A second order of 20 kites should then be able to replace the 5 7900’s and 176-190 that would remain by then.

I realise earlier, 1051-1062 will probably end up at Country in this plan.

I didn't run the numbers but that sounds better than I first thought. Plus the current airlinks would rejoin main fleet after refurb which is another few.

As an ECB punter I'd rejoice at seeing the back of 51-65 - don't care for them at all. Are you theorising there or is that based on information you have?

Mentioning 284-9 are we thinking a deal done with Wrights? Resurrect them and we'll buy something else (which they've now done with the Kites and the Electroliners)

 

[mb88]

Struggling to see how XLBs could cope with any Lothian County services to be honest, with the exception maybe of the X18. All the other routes have at least one point that I can see being problematic:

43 turning at the bottom of the Loan in Queensferry; Scotstoun terminus.
X27 Calderwood
X28 Kirknewton
72 Pumpherston; bridge on Niddry Road, Winchburgh

No point using them on the 70/71, 73 or 74 due to the loadings on those routes.

 

[DespacitoPlayz]

Did 12 really do the X18 and then the 25 the next day at the end of April? I'm seeing that on bustimes not sure if it's a tracking error or not.

12 was on the X18. Photo taken by myself attached.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Struggling to see how XLBs could cope with any Lothian County services to be honest, with the exception maybe of the X18. All the other routes have at least one point that I can see being problematic:

43 turning at the bottom of the Loan in Queensferry; Scotstoun terminus.
X27 Calderwood
X28 Kirknewton
72 Pumpherston; bridge on Niddry Road, Winchburgh

No point using them on the 70/71, 73 or 74 due to the loadings on those routes.

I wonder if they’ve opted for bigger buses to offer more seats as a way of saving on frequency? I think the 43 should be ok as the Eclipses that used to do the 63 were fine, but Kirknewton especially wouldn’t work. That aside, I don’t see the X27/X28 getting them anyway. 43 and X18 for me.

I didn't run the numbers but that sounds better than I first thought. Plus the current airlinks would rejoin main fleet after refurb which is another few.

As an ECB punter I'd rejoice at seeing the back of 51-65 - don't care for them at all. Are you theorising there or is that based on information you have?

Mentioning 284-9 are we thinking a deal done with Wrights? Resurrect them and we'll buy something else (which they've now done with the Kites and the Electroliners)

I’m just looking at what the Evora’s will replace at ECB and that seems the obvious thing to do. I can’t see why 51-65 wouldn’t depart and whether they go to Longstone or Marine is another question, but for me Marine for the 48 seems the most logical option.

I’ve maintained for a while now that it would make sense for Lothian to fit the NewPower/Kite systems into the StreetAir’s. Particularly it is good for both operator as they finally get them working and manufacturer who can showcase a repowered single decker. The StreetAir’s are easier to do as they’re actually on a decker StreetDeck chassis so the NewPower stuff is therefore perfect for it.

 

[scosutsut]

I’ve maintained for a while now that it would make sense for Lothian to fit the NewPower/Kite systems into the StreetAir’s. Particularly it is good for both operator as they finally get them working and manufacturer who can showcase a repowered single decker. The StreetAir’s are easier to do as they’re actually on a decker StreetDeck chassis so the NewPower stuff is therefore perfect for it.

I like it, makes sense. Can imagine a few places they could fit, specifically around tenders currently operated, and others that could be picked up on the next round of bidding.

 

[Busman757]

Struggling to see how XLBs could cope with any Lothian County services to be honest, with the exception maybe of the X18. All the other routes have at least one point that I can see being problematic:

43 turning at the bottom of the Loan in Queensferry; Scotstoun terminus.
X27 Calderwood
X28 Kirknewton
72 Pumpherston; bridge on Niddry Road, Winchburgh

No point using them on the 70/71, 73 or 74 due to the loadings on those routes.

There’s already been one one the X28 a few years back and managed to work Kirknewton ok. There’s not really much difference if the rear axle is locked like the current ones. Just need to take it wider.

 

[Scott mac]

Isn't the 20 street decks evs for the 100?surely they would order the same size of buses for the 100?

 

[Lx008]

Isn't the 20 street decks evs for the 100?surely they would order the same size of buses for the 100?

Unlikely, while there is a tri-axle streetdeck electroliner, it isn’t approved for the UK right now, and even if it was, no electric bus as of right now could deal with the service on the 100 (just not enough time for charging during the day) they would likely need at least 25 electrics to replace the current XLBs.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Struggling to see how XLBs could cope with any Lothian County services to be honest, with the exception maybe of the X18. All the other routes have at least one point that I can see being problematic:

43 turning at the bottom of the Loan in Queensferry; Scotstoun terminus.
X27 Calderwood
X28 Kirknewton
72 Pumpherston; bridge on Niddry Road, Winchburgh

No point using them on the 70/71, 73 or 74 due to the loadings on those routes.

On the 43 route, Scotstoun terminus was only built about 10 years ago and pretty sure it would have been modelled against this type of vehicle. Think a shelter or two has been demolished by turning buses but probably more by misjudgement than anything else.
Bottom of The Loan was constructed a bit earlier however the traffic lights allow a wide sweep nowadays and shouldn't present a problem.
The route has supported bus number 1105 on at least one occasion, as shown in the photo attached below.
Not sure if all bus stops on country services would be suitable for passengers with mobility challenges when using front and centre doors at the same time. Even some of the 43 stops could be tricky.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Not sure if all bus stops on country services would be suitable for passengers with mobility challenges when using front and centre doors at the same time. Even some of the 43 stops could be tricky.

There is currently no suggestion these will be dual door, however.

 

[DunsBus]

On the 43 route, Scotstoun terminus was only built about 10 years ago and pretty sure it would have been modelled against this type of vehicle. Think a shelter or two has been demolished by turning buses but probably more by misjudgement than anything else.
Bottom of The Loan was constructed a bit earlier however the traffic lights allow a wide sweep nowadays and shouldn't present a problem.
The route has supported bus number 1105 on at least one occasion, as shown in the photo attached below.
Not sure if all bus stops on country services would be suitable for passengers with mobility challenges when using front and centre doors at the same time. Even some of the 43 stops could be tricky.

Before the terminus was built, buses terminated on Scotstoun Avenue at Somerville Gardens, using the mouth of the junction to turn. That in itself needed precision - get it wrong, and a shunt was required to complete the manoeuvre.

 

[mb88]

I’m led to believe the ones for East Coast and Lothian Country will be shorter than the current XLB models in service, at 12.8m instead of 13.4m, and will be single door.

 

[scatterkeir]

Shame if they're single door, as a passenger one of the main things I appreciate about the XLBs is the swift exit.

 

[nathanchansc]

I’m led to believe the ones for East Coast and Lothian Country will be shorter than the current XLB models in service, at 12.8m instead of 13.4m, and will be single door.

Would be very disappointed if it's single door, as the long buses are successful not just because of the capacity but also the efficiency with two doors. I would've thought a lot of Lothian routes would benefit from these buses like the 25 and 26. But I just can't see the reason for them to be on the LCB and ECB routes, especially they're not particularly frequent and it won't save any buses by using bigger buses.

OT. There are plenty of 12.8m ADL E500/ MCV B8L in Hong Kong. Don't think they are branded XLB and it definitely helped capacity compared to 12m which was prevalent over there in the past.

 

[mb88]

Shame if they're single door, as a passenger one of the main things I appreciate about the XLBs is the swift exit.

Trouble it there are very few bus stops in West Lothian where the centre door could actually be used.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I’m led to believe the ones for East Coast and Lothian Country will be shorter than the current XLB models in service, at 12.8m instead of 13.4m, and will be single door.

The Airlink ones will also have to be 12.8m so that suggests all 60 will be 12.8m and all single door.

 

[Lx008]

The Airlink ones will also have to be 12.8m so that suggests all 60 will be 12.8m and all single door.

could you enlighten me as to why the need ti be 12.8m, I thought all XLB's where 13.4m and the enviro 500 is the 12.8m variant (among many other differences)

 

[scosutsut]

could you enlighten me as to why the need ti be 12.8m, I thought all XLB's where 13.4m and the enviro 500 is the 12.8m variant (among many other differences)

I believe it's because 12.8m is the longest version MCV have bodied and they've bodied them for years since the last 13.4m XLB was built.

So people either know the longer variant has been discontinued by Volvo, or assuming 12.8m is the max due to that all what's been made for years.

I am unsure which is true.

(Edit, I'm told by AI that Volvo only list 12.0 and 12.8m variants now, but I've not seen that with my own eyes. Given Lothians long relationship with them, I'd hazard if anyone could get the longer variant again, it would be them. It would also save Alexander's needing to rejig the design)

 

[Belfastmarty]

So people either know the longer variant has been discontinued by Volvo, or assuming 12.8m is the max due to that all what's been made for years

Chassis don't come as a 'length' though. They consist of front and rear modules which get integrated to the bodywork by the manufacturer, so there is a degree of flexibility as to the length of the finished vehicle.

 

[scosutsut]

Chassis don't come as a 'length' though. They consist of front and rear modules which get integrated to the bodywork by the manufacturer, so there is a degree of flexibility as to the length of the finished vehicle.

In that case I'll be surprised if they aren't 13.4m and dual door, as if they aren't that's two bits of re-engineering ADL would have to do, and they'd need to incorporate an emergency exit door to make it three big changes.

 

[GusB]

In that case I'll be surprised if they aren't 13.4m and dual door, as if they aren't that's two bits of re-engineering ADL would have to do, and they'd need to incorporate an emergency exit door to make it three big changes.

The chassis version is 13.4m, according to the specifications on Volvo's website:

Specifications

Length, width, height of the Volvo B8L Double Decker bus. Engine specifications, battery, charging, breaks, suspension and more.

www.volvobuses.com

Dimensions and weights​

Length	13.4m
Width	2.5 m
Permitted GVW	24,800 kg

 

[AndrewTaylor95]

Looking forward to seeing the E400EV Volvo BZL

 

[DespacitoPlayz]

Looking forward to seeing the E400EV Volvo BZL

It'll most likely be bodied by one manufacturer and the chassis provided by the other instead of a hybrid between two bus models.

 

[cam22]

Might be wrong but is this the first time Lothian Country have had a brand new bus order instead of old Lothian stock?

 

[Spsf3232]

It'll most likely be bodied by one manufacturer and the chassis provided by the other instead of a hybrid between two bus models.

Exactly what's been happening for a long long time! It's nothing new