Rail travel vs. air travel - fair comparisons?

[Oxfordblues]

We recently flew with Ryanair from Birmingham to Valencia. The fare was an unbeatable £20.99 each. Clearly a loss-leader because that goes no way to covering Ryanair's costs. However our suitcase was a much more economically-sensible £65.

I think the railways could take a leaf out of the airlines' book when it comes to pricing. A knock-down headline fare to entice the punters, but hefty surcharges for luggage and seat-reservations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the railways could take a leaf out of the airlines' book when it comes to pricing. A knock-down headline fare to entice the punters, but hefty surcharges for luggage and seat-reservations.

Definitely not.

Lumo can do that, but the main line absolutely should not.

 

[Lloyds siding]

you're misinterpreting the text they're referring to the distance from Kirkby:

Kirkby -> Lime Street: 8 miles
Kirkby -> South Parkway: 13 miles
Kirkby -> LPL: 15 miles

This seems to be about right - it is ~2 miles from LPY to the airport

Yes, misinterpreted this, apologies to all, especially krokodil.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think the railways could take a leaf out of the airlines' book when it comes to pricing. A knock-down headline fare to entice the punters, but hefty surcharges for luggage and seat-reservations.

They do that in France with OuiGo.

By all accounts, it is a thoroughly miserable experience.

 

[To the trains]

We recently flew with Ryanair from Birmingham to Valencia. The fare was an unbeatable £20.99 each. Clearly a loss-leader because that goes no way to covering Ryanair's costs. However our suitcase was a much more economically-sensible £65.

I think the railways could take a leaf out of the airlines' book when it comes to pricing. A knock-down headline fare to entice the punters, but hefty surcharges for luggage and seat-reservations.

On a plane, everyone has to have an assigned seat and file past the gate agent (and are used to arriving well in advance for an occasional flight), showing their boarding pass and passport regardless, people can't just hop on like a train. Trying to enforce airline style restrictions on trains (which each carry far more people than a Ryanair flight) would be absolute madness, who's going to find the extra army of staff who'll probably cost more to employ than the fees they'll rake in and it would take so long (last time I flew out of Nantes, they were so fussy about sizing everyone's bag that it delayed the flight, and then they just waved every bag through). Trains are not planes, they should leverage the things they can do that planes can't (let people hop on not too long before departure without any formalities), not become planes.

 

[sh24]

Price is less of a concern for me, convenience, speed and productivity are key. I'm fortunate to live in Central London so accessing KX/Euston/Paddington is quicker than London City and Heathrow, and much quicker than Gatwick.

Anything up to 4 hours by rail I wouldn't even look at flying (Newcastle, Manchester, Leeds when it had LHR flights). Edinburgh normally works too, as does Glasgow though things like Sunday timetables and engineering work can tip the balance or at least make me doubt check. Beyond that it's plane all the way, there are many more productive ways to spend a day that sitting on an Azuma all the way to Aberdeen. Sleepers are a no go as I can't bank on a decent nights sleep.

I did a few South West to Edinburgh trips in 2024 and rail would be inconceivable for those.

 

[Krokodil]

Just looking at Bristol to Edinburgh, a quick check on Skyscanner shows 4 departures a day. I don't know what type of aircraft they use but it's easyJet so it'll be between 156 and 235 seats per flight. So not nothing, but less than 1000 seats per day - not actually a huge market for rail to chase.

Rail doesn't just serve a single journey pair though. A single XC train will compete Edinburgh and Newcastle to Birmingham, Bristol and Exeter flights.

For reference though, it is more than 1,000 per day.

Annual totals from Wikipedia's entry on Bristol Airport:
Edinburgh 451,404
Glasgow 292,113
Newcastle 147,923
Inverness 92,198
Aberdeen 14,360

Exeter is much smaller, the only flow big enough to make the top 10 is Edinburgh at 27,405.

Edinburgh to Birmingham is 300,226, Edinburgh to Southampton is 82,130.
Edinburgh to Newquay is 20,867
Aberdeen to Manchester is 62,211

Obviously some of those routes are too long for rail to be competitive even with the best infrastructure, but I reckon that there are around 3,000 journeys per day that could potentially be poached if Crosscountry weren't slow, overpriced and overcrowded. You could fill 15 Voyagers with that.

HS2 Eastern Leg would have knocked an hour off of journey times between Birmingham and Newcastle, and Golborne would have knocked three-quarters of an hour off of Birmingham to Scotland. Each train would have 2.5 times the capacity of a 220. That would have had the potential to knock a substantial dent in domestic flights out of Birmingham.

Integrate Bristol services into Curzon Street and Bristol-Newcastle falls under the magic 4 hr threshold (where rail really starts competing with air) while Bristol-Scotland would be not far above it at around 4hr 30.

I think the railways could take a leaf out of the airlines' book when it comes to pricing.

Oh god no.

 

[thenorthern]

When Carlisle Lake District Airport had passenger flights starting in 2019 I remember they were comparing it to train travel. The flagship route was to London Southend. While the flight did indeed take an hour compared to around 3 and a half hours on the train it wasn't really a fair comparison.

For starters, it's a 15-minute journey to Carlisle Airport from the city centre, then there is the requirement to check in at least an hour before. Then in Southend it's an hour journey to Central London. Plus the flighs were I think twice daily while the train is every half hour. So no it's not really a fair comparison.

Carlisle Airport passenger flights were a casualty of Covid in 2020 but in reality, I think Loganair were glad to end them regardless.

 

[BayPaul]

Just looking at Bristol to Edinburgh, a quick check on Skyscanner shows 4 departures a day. I don't know what type of aircraft they use but it's easyJet so it'll be between 156 and 235 seats per flight. So not nothing, but less than 1000 seats per day - not actually a huge market for rail to chase.

If rail in the UK is going to chase growth, overall the car is probably what to chase. As you say, overall numbers by air and indeed coach are tiny in comparison - all the passengers who go by coach from London to Manchester in a day would probably fit in one 11 car Pendolino, for example.

I think there is a market, especially chasing car drivers.

From London there are basically 3 motorways heading north (M40, M1, M6) carrying intercity type traffic. *
From Bristol there is 1. All 4 roads are similar size, and all get very busy. You could infer that the intercity market from Bristol and the SW is around a third of the size of the intercity market from London. But there are a lot less than a third of the number of intercity carriages.

From London, the train is usually the faster option by some distance. From Bristol the two are similar, which really means driving is likely to be faster as it's door to door.

*Yes, it's not a perfect comparison, as there is commuter traffic too, the A1(M) also exists, and the M6 doesn't reach London, but I think overall it isn't a bad measure!

 

[jthjth]

Something that’s not been covered - comfort. I find aircraft seats to be reasonably comfortable, unlike many modern train seats. Even if you don’t you are sat on them for a much shorter time than on a train. Had some work colleagues who had to make frequent trips from the midlands to the Edinburgh area. Usually done by air until one of them wanted to go by train for environmental reasons. When questioned after their return they vowed never to use the train again. When asked why the response was a mixture of complaints about comfort, and it seeming to take forever compared to flying.

 

[enginedin]

Something that’s not been covered - comfort. I find aircraft seats to be reasonably comfortable,

interesting pov: I find the total opposite. Even on the Azumas which lots of people on here say they find really uncomfortable I have no issue with, but I find sitting on a Ryan[..]Jet seat for an hour horrendously awful

 

[baz962]

We recently flew with Ryanair from Birmingham to Valencia. The fare was an unbeatable £20.99 each. Clearly a loss-leader because that goes no way to covering Ryanair's costs. However our suitcase was a much more economically-sensible £65.

I think the railways could take a leaf out of the airlines' book when it comes to pricing. A knock-down headline fare to entice the punters, but hefty surcharges for luggage and seat-reservations.

I always wonder about comparing rail to flying as of course air travel can seem to be cheaper when travelling without luggage etc . Just been checking the price gouging on champions league day . Just over £500 one way with wizz from Luton.

 

[jthjth]

The other thing that rail doesn’t do is to encourage frequent travellers (I don’t mean season ticket commuting) who don’t qualify for a rail card. EasyJet sell an EasyJet Plus card for £250 for the year. This gives you fast track security, free speedy boarding, large cabin bag, free seat selection and a few other minor benefits. If you pay out for that it encourages you to keep using EJ for the year. I suppose this is back to the question as to why a, possibly expensive, railcard isn’t made available to those who can’t currently get a rail card. Or perhaps a paid for card that allows free upgrades to first class.

 

[Dryce]

I think the railways could take a leaf out of the airlines' book when it comes to pricing. A knock-down headline fare to entice the punters, but hefty surcharges for luggage and seat-reservations.

I suspect that rail routes such as Edinburgh or Glasgow to London benefit from this airline behaviour.

These days sorting out the pricing on the flying option is such a hassle that I suspect many rail passengers don't bother even looking at the airlines and just book the train.

 

[Jim the Jim]

On boredom - personally I get a lot less bored on trains when you can look out the window than on planes where you hang around in various dull locations in the airport and then get on a plane where, if you're lucky enough to get a window seat, you can usually only see clouds anyway. And you're not even allowed on your phone!

 

[BayPaul]

On boredom - personally I get a lot less bored on trains when you can look out the window than on planes where you hang around in various dull locations in the airport and then get on a plane where, if you're lucky enough to get a window seat, you can usually only see clouds anyway. And you're not even allowed on your phone!

There are good moments... I'd say there's nothing more spectacular than a right hand side window seat arrival into Heathrow during a westerly wind!

 

[Krokodil]

There are good moments... I'd say there's nothing more spectacular than a right hand side window seat arrival into Heathrow during a westerly wind!

I think that coming into Gatwick to see "Welcome to Luton" is more entertaining.

Thanks Max Fosh for that prank!

 

[sh24]

There are good moments... I'd say there's nothing more spectacular than a right hand side window seat arrival into Heathrow during a westerly wind!

Or the easterly approach into London City! (and not because it goes right over my house)

 

[AlterEgo]

On boredom - personally I get a lot less bored on trains when you can look out the window than on planes where you hang around in various dull locations in the airport and then get on a plane where, if you're lucky enough to get a window seat, you can usually only see clouds anyway. And you're not even allowed on your phone!

You can't make calls but you can absolutely use your mobile phone on an aircraft.

 

[317 forever]

A couple of years ago I had a domestic matter to see to near Acton Town. For my journey home I flew BA to Manchester instead of catching a train to Stockport.

The BA restricted single was only around £10 more than the Avanti Advance with similar timings. The bus home from the Airport dropped me off a bit closer than Stockport station too. Plus the Underground to Heathrow was a shorter journey than to Euston.