Rail travel vs. air travel - fair comparisons?

[Shimbleshanks]

TfL (other than the Liz and Overground) is the same as bus/taxi etc in requiring slack, because if you miss a train due to a delayed Tube you don't have rights to journey continuation or Delay Repay.



Compensation isn't the issue, it's the lack of guarantee of carriage for free on a later train that requires the slack to be introduced.



For vast swathes of people in south Manchester, getting to Manchester Airport is more convenient than to Piccadilly, and about the same as getting to Stockport. (This is why HS2 2B going ahead without "Manchester Airport Parkway" would have been a bad thing by the way).



1h vs 10m, so 50 minutes difference, yes. You can either disregard added slack for getting to the airport/station or you can add it for both (though the amount may vary depending on which station/airport you're going to). You can't add it for one and not the other unless making a personal comparison where you can arrive on foot at one but not the other.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2026 ==



The counter to that is that for many people sitting in one place for 4 hours is boring. I tend to find I break up long rail journeys to avoid that (I tend to do MKC to north WCML via Manchester in order to do that). Might be different if I wanted to work though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2026 ==

The counter to that is that for many people sitting in one place for 4 hours is boring. I tend to find I break up long rail journeys to avoid that (I tend to do MKC to north WCML via Manchester in order to do that). Might be different if I wanted to work though.

You can never be bored if you have a good book...

 

[styles]

TfL (other than the Liz and Overground) is the same as bus/taxi etc in requiring slack, because if you miss a train due to a delayed Tube you don't have rights to journey continuation or Delay Repay.

You do. You just have to exercise your rights under the Consumer Rights Act rather than relying on NR's Delay Repay.

Compensation isn't the issue, it's the lack of guarantee of carriage for free on a later train that requires the slack to be introduced.

Yes this is why travel insurance exists. But also why where this actually matters - journeys which are usually cheaper by air than train, which are mostly to/from London - the trains are every few minutes so nobody relies on the actual timetable and in the worst case you can hail a taxi in a matter of seconds.

For vast swathes of people in south Manchester, getting to Manchester Airport is more convenient than to Piccadilly, and about the same as getting to Stockport. (This is why HS2 2B going ahead without "Manchester Airport Parkway" would have been a bad thing by the way).

Be that as it may, Manchester Airport only has 5 city mainland domestic destinations (London, Cardiff, Bristol, Edinburgh, Newcastle).

We've already looked at one option of north Wales to Edinburgh via Manchester airport and it didn't stack up. Manchester to Edinburgh is 3h15 by train and at absolute best 3h10 self-transferring in Belfast by plane. Then we add the extra hour ish needed for the airport. And it's more expensive, even accounting for a small connection from south Manchester to Piccadilly, which is obviously very well-connected. I'm sure we could contrive some very specific journeys where the air option is more worthwhile but for the vast majority of people, it's not the best choice.

1h vs 10m, so 50 minutes difference, yes. You can either disregard added slack for getting to the airport/station or you can add it for both (though the amount may vary depending on which station/airport you're going to). You can't add it for one and not the other unless making a personal comparison where you can arrive on foot at one but not the other.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2026 ==

Well yes, that's my point. It's 50min extra for the airport option even after accounting for bus etc delays.

The counter to that is that for many people sitting in one place for 4 hours is boring. I tend to find I break up long rail journeys to avoid that (I tend to do MKC to north WCML via Manchester in order to do that). Might be different if I wanted to work though.

This is a bit of a different argument. I too sometimes choose routes which involve splitting up my journey. I've got some SBB/OBB trains booked next month which I've chosen the longer but cheaper options on so I can pop out and explore a city centre a bit. Funnily enough, not something which is usually that feasible with air travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is a bit of a different argument. I too sometimes choose routes which involve splitting up my journey. I've got some SBB/OBB trains booked next month which I've chosen the longer but cheaper options on so I can pop out and explore a city centre a bit. Funnily enough, not something which is usually that feasible with air travel.

That's indeed a different comparison. When you get onto European trips, air travel is about getting where you're going as cheaply/quickly as possible. Whereas if you go by car or rail you can make the journey part of the holiday. Both are valid, they're just different.

For some cases Eurostar can be quicker (but note the city centre vs. suburb thing), but is rarely cheaper.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2026 ==

You can never be bored if you have a good book...

Yes and do. Attention spans vary - personally I get a bit twitchy if I'm sat in one place more than a couple of hours. Good book and succession of films or not, long haul flights are horribly boring for me. But then I'm not one of those people who can sit and watch a run of films without a break (bar for the loo) - there are plenty who do though!

 

[nuneatonmark]

I lived in Nuneaton for 30 years and travelled for work and leisure extensively. The only useful domestic destinations from BHX were Glasgow, Newcastle and Edinburgh. I would usually be going to the city centre. From Nuneaton, Glasgow was better by train, usually; mainly due to Glasgow airports crap transport links. Edinburgh was 50/50 depending on when you travelled, Newcastle was better by air due to Crosscountry's slow and expensive trains. Friends of ours who lived north of Newcastle said air was very often cheapest and quickest to London, even the centre. Other friends who often travel Bristol to Newcastle say air every time, despite the inconvenient location of Bristol Airport.

 

[The exile]

Allowance of extra time for delay on journey to “random station” = allowance of extra time for delay on journey to “random airport” so can be ignored in both cases (in reality of course they may vary according to known local specifics). Once at station , assuming you already have a ticket, there’s is basically no need to add any contingency unless you are reliant on escalators / lifts - but we’ll allow 15 minutes to get to the furthest platform. Once you arrive at the airport, theirs is the unknown of security- which I will accept is the only source of potential serious delay on a domestic flight (I’m assuming no hold baggage) - but can be horrendous. And of course that’s to get to your gate before it closes 30 minutes before departure.

 

[styles]

For some cases Eurostar can be quicker (but note the city centre vs. suburb thing), but is rarely cheaper.

Except for wheelchair users and their companions. £39 flat fare which is either Premium or Plus, for any journey to/from London. Includes 2 course meal and drinks and potentially lounge access. Plenty of luggage storage, and of course, city centre to city centre.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except for wheelchair users and their companions. £39 flat fare which is either Premium or Plus, for any journey to/from London. Includes 2 course meal and drinks and potentially lounge access.

That's quite attractive.

Plenty of luggage storage, and of course, city centre to city centre.

That maybe less so - to reiterate, most journeys are suburb/commuter town to city centre. And a wheelchair user will no doubt prefer to reach their origin station by (accessible) car.

That said, air handles wheelchair accessibility terribly, so rail is very attractive in comparison.

 

[enginedin]

You seriously think most people arrive at the station for a long distance intercity journey on foot or by National Rail? Really?

...

Elsewhere it's mostly going to be car and taxi.

I think I'd dispute this. I've lived in 5 large(-ish) cities in the last 15 years. My observation is the vast majority of people arrive by connecting local services, bus, or light rail / tram. The number of private cars outside large stations is very small (this might not be orthogonal to your argument about allowing enough time for delays, but it adds a different slant)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think I'd dispute this. I've lived in 5 large(-ish) cities in the last 15 years. My observation is the vast majority of people arrive by connecting local services, bus, or light rail / tram.

But not local rail (possibly except Merseyside, the Liz and Thameslink?) - and it has to be that to have connection protection. Mostly non-National Rall modes, which require that slack building in.

The number of private cars outside large stations is very small.

They're usually in a very large multi storey car park! There might be a north south split on this though. Pretty much all South East stations have large, well filled car parks, though a lot will be commuters, for whom an extra 15 minutes in bed matters.

 

[mmh]

I missed the word 'mainline' in your other comment, but including TfL services yes I believe a very significant number of people arrive at large interchange stations by rail.

My "long distance intercity journeys" mostly start at one of Llandudno Junction, Warrington Bank Quay, Crewe or Glasgow Central, and at all of those indeed a very significant number of people have arrived by rail. In fact, at Warrington and Crewe from observation while outside smoking I'll stick my neck out and say I think that at those stations most have arrived by rail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My "long distance intercity journeys" mostly start at one of Llandudno Junction, Warrington Bank Quay, Crewe or Glasgow Central, and at all of those indeed a very significant number of people have arrived by rail. In fact, at Warrington and Crewe from observation while outside smoking I'll stick my neck out and say I think that at those stations most have arrived by rail.

I'd be surprised if that were true of Warrington Bank Quay, largely because there aren't many relevant local rail services there bar those from North Wales where it avoids a change compared to Crewe except Sundays*. It is probably true of Crewe, but that's not because they are showing up primarily on local stoppers but rather because it's a major interchange between intercity routes. By arriving I mean getting to the railhead from home.

* I note that ATW/TfW have now made major structural changes to the Coast service about three times since 1998, but Sundays still run a timetable structurally the same as twenty years ago and it still isn't being updated! (That is most trains to Crewe, the Marches service starting at Chester, few through Llandudnos** etc).

** I know having the shuttle is an improvement on the 1998 timetable which had no winter Llandudno service at all.

 

[enginedin]

But not local rail (possibly except Merseyside, the Liz and Thameslink?) - and it has to be that to have connection protection.

And Glasgow, densely populated areas of Bristol (the Severn Beach line is always busy - I use it a lot and every train has lots of people who get / on at Temple Meads for connecting services) / Leeds conurbation....

They're usually in a very large multi storey car park!

not Waverley / Temple Meads / Glasgow QS or Central...

This does align with your potential North / South observations though! I try not to go south of Watford Gap if I can help it

 

[Bletchleyite]

not Waverley

Edinburgh is probably on a par with London as a car unfriendly city - but don't forget there's Haymarket (doesn't have its own car park but there's a large multistorey nearby according to Google). In Edinburgh I think taxis will feature heavily.

/ Temple Meads

Temple Meads has loads of car parking and it's usually busy. Plenty dropping off too and loads of taxis. Probably more by local rail than bus, but that's because most bus routes go nowhere near it as it's awkwardly about a mile outside the centre (see also Cambridge).

/ Glasgow QS or Central...

Those wishing to drop off/pick up by car for London services and the likes will generally go to Motherwell I'd think - see Stockport for another example (often busier than Picc on London services - you think you've got a double seat then they all pile on there), and Runcorn (and now South Parkway) for Liverpool, though Runcorn will be a lot less popular now the bridge is tolled.

This does align with your potential North / South observations though! I try not to go south of Watford Gap if I can help it

Certainly the vast swathes of car parking at South East stations was a difference for me when I moved down here. But major WCML stations have huge amounts of parking - Preston, Wigan NW etc certainly. Part of this is because local services in Northernland often don't run early enough for business day trippers to connect even if they wanted to. Some branch lines do carry near enough exclusively local traffic - Morecambe is one (bar the Yorkshire through services), the Marston Vale is another - indeed the timetable was changed not so long ago to ease school journeys at the expense of connections taking into account that it's just one or two people who change to/from it at Bletchley - most demand is wholly self contained.

 

[Krokodil]

It's not just crow-flies distance, though.

I was using Google Maps driving directions.

Many people simply will not drive into a city centre under any circumstances as it's too stressful.

Indeed. But from Kirkby there's no need to drive. Nor from Bury.

Same from the Chester area, the Airport is right next to the Mersey Gateway bridge whereas you have to battle through the tunnels and the Liverpool one-way system to get to Lime Street.

If you're going from Chester to Lime Street there are five trains per hour so no one in their right mind would drive. Furthermore, for the long distance journeys we're discussing, Chester has direct services to London, and a nice easy (cross-platform) one-change ride to Scotland via Warrington.

Again, the people who can drive to an airport in less time than they could drive to a railway station with good connectivity with long distance services are in a minority. Quite apart from the cost of driving to/from an airport (your wife can drop you off at a railway station for free).

we bring in Eurostar as a comparison (which does have airport like features, e.g. I think now 1 hour minimum checkin?) that might lengthen it, but the discussion is primarily domestic at the moment.

30 minute minimum for Standard or Standard Plus, 15 minute minimum for Premier. With Eurostar you know that as long as you join the queue by the 30 minute mark, you'll make your train - even if they have to hold it for you. Eurostar will also move you to a later train without charge if you miss a connection. Some airlines might let you do this, but you may well be waiting until tomorrow.

Compensation isn't the issue, it's the lack of guarantee of carriage for free on a later train that requires the slack to be introduced.

There's no guarantee, but if the tube is up the wall, national rail staff are more likely to be accommodating than airline staff. Again there will probably be another train an hour (or less) later whereas an airline running that frequently is a rare beast.

 

[enginedin]

Haymarket (doesn't have its own car park but there's a large multistorey nearby according to Google). In Edinburgh I think taxis will feature heavily.

Haymarket is my actual closest station so I feel I can comment with some local knowledge: I've never seen anyone ever get dropped off, and there is no multistorey near by (the closest is probably Castle Terrace, but that's actually probably closer to Waverley)

Temple Meads has loads of car parking and it's usually busy. Plenty dropping off too and loads of taxis.

I was specifically trying to highlight my observations about private cars rather than taxis. Admittedly I've never gone inside the car part at Temple Meads because I always, err, get the train.... there are apparently 309 spaces tho. I've probably seen about this many people on a single Severn Beach service get off at Temple Meads and stay there for a connecting service

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was using Google Maps driving directions.

OK, simple distance isn't that significant.

Indeed. But from Kirkby there's no need to drive. Nor from Bury.

Though a lot of them will. Bury probably round the M60 to Stockport, Kirkby probably to Wigan as it is a reasonably quick motorway journey via the M58.

Again, the people who can drive to an airport in less time than they could drive to a railway station with good connectivity with long distance services are in a minority. Quite apart from the cost of driving to/from an airport (your wife can drop you off at a railway station for free).

While airports do charge for drop off the fee isn't usually so swingeing that people won't do it.

You are probably right speaking generally as there are fewer airports than major stations, but for fairly large populations it's as easy to get to an airport as an intercity station. For most of south Manchester and north Cheshire, Stockport and Manchester Airport are probably equally convenient (and Piccadilly REALLY inconvenient). OK, some will live nearer Wilmslow/Macclesfield but most won't. And Stockport/Airport are handy for those from most of Manchester via the M60 too.

30 minute minimum for Standard or Standard Plus, 15 minute minimum for Premier. With Eurostar you know that as long as you join the queue by the 30 minute mark, you'll make your train - even if they have to hold it for you. Eurostar will also move you to a later train without charge if you miss a connection. Some airlines might let you do this, but you may well be waiting until tomorrow.

There's no guarantee, but if the tube is up the wall, national rail staff are more likely to be accommodating than airline staff. Again there will probably be another train an hour (or less) later whereas an airline running that frequently is a rare beast.

Probably also true, but in reality people are leaving that extra slack when on Advances. It's quoted as one reason the concourses of major London stations are much busier than they once were.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2026 ==

Haymarket is my actual closest station so I feel I can comment with some local knowledge: I've never seen anyone ever get dropped off, and there is no multistorey near by (the closest is probably Castle Street, but that's actually probably closer to Waverley)

I suspect you aren't looking very hard. Are you a non-car-owner? If so you will usually not notice these things the same way - before I drove I didn't either.

I was specifically trying to highlight my observations about private cars rather than taxis. Admittedly I've never gone inside the car part at Temple Meads because I always, err, get the train.... there are apparently 309 spaces tho. I've probably seen about this many people on a single Severn Beach service get off at Temple Meads and stay there for a connecting service

I very much doubt there has ever been a Severn Beach train in the last thirty years that has carried 309 passengers, whatever they happened to be doing once they got to Temple Meads.

 

[Krokodil]

They're usually in a very large multi storey car park!

Not in large stations. The largest car park in a Category A station that I can think of is at Bristol Temple Meads. And that's not huge. People from the suburbs use local services to access these stations, massive car parks are something provided for stations located out of town.

 

[Howardh]

Bolton to Manchester Airport train goes through Piccadilly which is where most of my long-distance journeys start. Always factor in 10-15 mins for connection! So from Piccadilly, adding 10 mins, London Trafalgar Square is about 2hrs40 away,by train, but if I flew and winged it with an hour to get through security it's 15-20' train, 1hr @ airport, 1hr on the plane (could be less/more) and an hour to Trafalgar Sq from Heathrow. A win for the trains!

But a UK trip to, say, Cornwall would be flying by first choice (Newquay and onward) and as a trip I'm planning in July, Isle of Wight from Bolton is flying to Southampton.

 

[enginedin]

You are probably right speaking generally as there are fewer airports than major stations, but for fairly large populations it's as easy to get to an airport as an intercity station. For most of south Manchester and north Cheshire, Stockport and Manchester Airport are probably equally convenient (and Piccadilly REALLY inconvenient). OK, some will live nearer Wilmslow/Macclesfield but most won't. And Stockport/Airport are handy for those from most of Manchester via the M60 too.

I've been doing some related work on something along these lines in my day job. I might be able to engineer my time to look in this in a more scientific fashion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not in large stations. The largest car park in a Category A station that I can think of is at Bristol Temple Meads. And that's not huge. People from the suburbs use local services to access these stations, massive car parks are something provided for stations located out of town.

Preston: 1025 spaces
Wigan NW: 401 spaces
MKC: 1250 spaces (in reality many more as there are non-railway parking opportunities nearby) - yes, I get that many are commuting
...to name but three.

Actually here's the winner - Birmingham Intl, 2810! But some of that will no doubt be poaching custom from those who would park at the airport to fly.

But many will be taxis and drop-offs as parking can be costly. Often yes there will be Parkway stations rather than the city centre ones, e.g. Stockport (which really is functionally a Parkway station) 1000 spaces (an oddly round number).

I'm not saying nobody connects from local services, and more will here than in the general population - but I think more people don't than do, outside of areas with very frequent local rail services like Merseyside and London.

 

[Krokodil]

I very much doubt there has ever been a Severn Beach train in the last thirty years that has carried 309 passengers, whatever they happened to be doing once they got to Temple Meads.

The 309 spaces are the total available at the station all day (never mind that some of those cars will be there for a longer period of time). Severn Beach trains run every half-hour. And that's not counting anyone who comes in from other stations in Bristol and North Somerset.

The number of people driving to Bristol Temple Meads will be a minority compared to the number of people (4,000+ on an average day) who change from one rail service to another at the station, never mind those who walk/cycle/bus.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2026 ==

Preston: 1025 spaces
Wigan NW: 401 spaces
MKC: 1250 spaces (in reality many more as there are non-railway parking opportunities nearby) - yes, I get that many are commuting
...to name but three.

None of those are Category A stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The number of people driving to Bristol Temple Meads will be a minority compared to the number of people (4,000+ on an average day) who change from one rail service to another at the station, never mind those who walk/cycle/bus.

Because of its high number of commuters I'd agree with regard to local services and inbound commuting (and returning in the evening). However for those travelling on intercity services (i.e. to London, mostly, but also XC) most will not arrive by foot or connecting train. Due to the typical early start of day trip business travellers, the majority will probably be by taxi. I'd expect fewer of the XC passengers to arrive by private car though because XC is such a grim experience that many potential users who own cars will drive their journey instead.

The Severn Beach line, like the Marston Vale (albeit busier), will mostly carry people on self-contained journeys i.e. to/from Bristol. It's a common pattern for local services like this.

 

[riceuten]

Thought it worth a thread in itself on fairness of comparison between rail and air for long journeys rather than it just being an aside in the LNER fare increase trial thread...



At least you note that - a lot of people go "but the airport is out of town" ignoring that most journeys are suburb (home) to city centre and very few are actually city centre to city centre. For me for instance, Luton Airport is hugely more convenient than Kings Cross. And similarly for swathes of rich South Manchester, Ringway* is hugely more convenient than Piccadilly, though Stockport does act as a "posh parkway" and is often busier than Piccadilly for London trains as a result.

It thus probably evens out in most cases. Home to airport is very often easier than home to intercity railway station because most people live in suburbs and most airports are in suburbs (most people don't make connections for a long distance journey, they go direct by car/taxi to the mainline station) but the destination is likely to be in a city centre so with odd exceptions like Edinburgh the airport tends to be a long way out, but the faster journey time probably compensates for that?

* Not heard Manchester Airport called that for a while so why not

I hate hate hate these social media posts that compare an anywhere open return ticket within the UK to a once a week single fare on Ryanair that excludes luggage, check in fee and seat reservation. Sometimes they even advocate the Easyjets/Ryanairs of this world take over the railways.

Then of course there's the fare from the airport to the nearest train station/bus stop, as outlined. Or the likelihood that if the flight is in the evening, a 1-2 hour delay is pretty much expected.

 

[enginedin]

I suspect you aren't looking very hard. Are you a non-car-owner? If so you will usually not notice these things the same way - before I drove I didn't either.

nope, i do own a car. I drove it to work today. There's literally nowhere outside Haymarket to even drop off. There is a taxi rank, but I've never seen a private car in it. There are side roads, and sure, people could be getting dropped off, but that's very hard to (dis/)prove. For passengers who drive, Castle Terrace is a good 15 minute walk away and very expensive, so unlikely to be an obvious place for dropoffs or using parkway style.

I very much doubt there has ever been a Severn Beach train in the last thirty years that has carried 309 passengers, whatever they happened to be doing once they got to Temple Meads.

the capacity of a 3 coach 166 is apparently 329. I've seen them very full, with most seats taken.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I've never missed a train having got to the station 10 minutes before departure

I used to operate on that basis, well, 20 minutes instead of 10.

And then I missed my train to London because Stagecoach blobbed two buses on the bounce and then the third took 40 minutes to do a 20 minute journey. Net effect, I'd spent £200 on some very expensive and entirely useless orange cardboard and I then had to spend an extra £300 to get where I was going. Ironically, I was heading to Heathrow to catch a long-haul flight.

except there's absolutely no reason for someone to drive to Lime Street to get a train so this isn't a fair comparison.

You can say the same about the airport, plenty of buses serve it.

In reality, people are likely to drive (or take a taxi) to the station for the same reasons they do so to the airport.

 

[enginedin]

You can say the same about the airport, plenty of buses serve it.

Sorry - I meant driving to Lime Street from Chester, when (as others have pointed out) Chester has its own regular London service and good connections to Crewe and Warrington (and many other) places for longer distance journeys.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2026 ==

day trip business travellers

maybe this is the problem. I travel a lot for work. I seldom go for the day. I doubt any of us here can really state what the proportion of "day trip business" vs 'multiday business trips" really is

 

[Leogilbert007]

Some very good points in this thread

I will preface this by saying that I am an 18-year old who votes Green, lives in inner London and uses public transport for probably 99% of domestic joureys - I do not speak for everyone, especially those older than me, with substantial mobility issues, or who live a long way from a rail station. I am also not a policy-maker.
WITH THAT BEING SAID...
As someone studying geography, I want to add two extra dimensions to this:
1. A flight is quicker, but adding to, @Shimbleshanks ' post #29 on quality of time there is also better availability and quality of catering and wifi on domestic trains than on domestic flights in the UK - add to this interesting scenery compared to a vast expanse of monotonous sky (hyperbole but for the sake of my point...), the scenery on a train will be vastly more interesting for most (including non-enthusiasts) than on a plane. this is in addition to (barring on Advances) break one's journey at will to have a smoke, grab a pint, or visit a place.

2. We are living in an era of the man-made acceleration of climate change. Especially between London and cities like Exeter, Manchester, or Bristol, the government, in my opinion, needs to face up to the realities of the disastrous emissions of <1h domestic flights and work with TOCs in the short term to upgrade Main Line capacity to seriously dis-incentivise flying on routes served by direct, frequent trains, and incorporate this into the operation of GBR .

 

[Bletchleyite]

1. A flight is quicker, but adding to, @Shimbleshanks ' post #29 on quality of time there is also better availability and quality of catering and wifi on domestic trains than on domestic flights in the UK - add to this interesting scenery compared to a vast expanse of monotonous sky (hyperbole but for the sake of my point...), the scenery on a train will be vastly more interesting for most (including non-enthusiasts) than on a plane. this is in addition to (barring on Advances) break one's journey at will to have a smoke, grab a pint, or visit a place.

I'd question that about catering. The catering on most trains in Standard is now very poor or nonexistent. I think Ryanair probably offer the best range of food and drink available in the Standard/economy class of any UK domestic transport provider, with easyJet probably a close second.

2. We are living in an era of the man-made acceleration of climate change. Especially between London and cities like Exeter, Manchester, or Bristol, the government, in my opinion, needs to face up to the realities of the disastrous emissions of <1h domestic flights and work with TOCs in the short term to upgrade Main Line capacity to seriously dis-incentivise flying on routes served by direct, frequent trains, and incorporate this into the operation of GBR .

This is true, but I'd point out that the per-seat-mile emissions of a Voyager or Meridian are very similar to (though slightly below) those of a modern short haul aircraft such as the A320neo. Only if your train is electric is it significantly better.

 

[enginedin]

This is true, but I'd point out that the per-seat-mile emissions of a Voyager or Meridian are very similar to (though slightly below) those of a modern short haul aircraft such as the A320neo. Only if your train is electric is it significantly better.

we've had this debate before I absolutely don't agree that the combined emissions per passenger mile of a a320neo is anywhere near that of any form of rail travel, with the need to account for both CO2 and non-CO2 emissions.

Every calculator, even those that account for diesel trains, estimates that emissions per passenger mile is about an order of magnitude higher for domestic air travel than it is for rail

 

[Bletchleyite]

we've had this debate before I absolutely don't agree that the combined emissions per passenger mile of a a320neo is anywhere near that of any form of rail travel, with the need to account for both CO2 and non-CO2 emissions.

Every calculator, even those that account for diesel trains, estimates that emissions per passenger mile is about an order of magnitude higher for domestic air travel than it is for rail

Non-CO2 emissions (particulates, mainly) are of more consequence at ground level because people breathe them in. Thus rail is even worse in that regard. I'm convinced there will at some point be a case of lung cancer in a member of staff or former staff directly attributable to the thick fug at New St when a Voyager is sat there idling - it really is awful. The station was designed for LHCS and HSTs where the locomotive would be outside the covered area, it can't handle long DMU trains with high emissions.

The kg/seat km figures I've given before, search the Forum if you want to find them. Air is higher, but they are remarkably close. Since I learnt that I've been even more resolute in my view that Classes 220-222 have no medium or long term future on the railway.