Staff being difficult over attempts to break journey

[MrElectrostar]

Something I seem to be noticing more and more on the railway are staff at ticket gates trying to say that my ticket is not valid for a break of journey when presented.

There have been a few instances of this lately, like when I showed a Hove to London Victoria ticket at the barriers at Clapham Junction, the member of staff at the Grant Road exit seemed adamant I couldn't exit with it and when I protested that staff at the ticket office always know the validity and will permit it, they insisted that that necessitate me going all the way to the other side of the station to talk to someone at the ticket office. After putting it through the barriers the ticket did come back out and I was able to exit.

But this seems to be happening over and over again in my experience and I am getting really sick of it.

My understanding is that unless the ticket is an advance then a break of journey is always permitted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My understanding is that unless the ticket is an advance then a break of journey is always permitted.

Your understanding is wrong. Walk-up tickets other than Anytime (except SailRail) can bar break of journey though usually only do on the outward portion. This is done via the restriction code. Almost none ban it on the return half - to my knowledge restriction code 8A, pretty much only used by TfW now (ScotRail did but off peaks have been abolished there), is the only one that now does.

 

[Djgr]

Your understanding is wrong. Walk-up tickets other than Anytime (except SailRail) can bar break of journey though usually only do on the outward portion. This is done via the restriction code. Almost none ban it on the return half - to my knowledge restriction code 8A, pretty much only used by TfW now (ScotRail did but off peaks have been abolished there), is the only one that now does.

Yes it's always worth checking...certainly before getting into a slanging match.

 

[LucyP]

Slanging match with whom? Some barrier operative who is unlikely to know the rules and regulations for every ticket and every journey? Why are the rules so complicated anyway? This is exactly what puts people off public transport.

 

[amahy]

Your understanding is wrong. Walk-up tickets other than Anytime (except SailRail) can bar break of journey though usually only do on the outward portion. This is done via the restriction code. Almost none ban it on the return half - to my knowledge restriction code 8A, pretty much only used by TfW now (ScotRail did but off peaks have been abolished there), is the only one that now does.

Are there good reasons for this random restriction, or is it just the UK rail industry being awkward for the heck of it again? Why bar it on the outward portion but not the return?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are there good reasons for this random restriction, or is it just the UK rail industry being awkward for the heck of it again? Why bar it on the outward portion but not the return?

BR did it for years on Saver tickets. Not sure why.

 

[MrElectrostar]

As far as I'm aware an off peak return from Hove to London Victoria doesn't have such ticket restriction codes preventing a break of journey which apply to it, but I'll be sure to double check this in future.

This instance at Clapham Junction was very frustrating as the staff member seemed to insist that the ticket wouldn't let me out before Victoria, which was the ticket's destination.

In this case the ticket did open that barrier and let me out which led me to think that break of journey must have been valid with this ticket. This has happened a few times now.

Has anyone else had a similar experience or know why staff may be unwilling to permit such breaks of journey?

 

[jfollows]

Some staff are poorly trained, with little incentive to do their jobs properly, and many of them make up rules to fit with their views of how they think things ought to be, for which they never get into trouble from their management.

Clearly there are many good, competent and conscientious staff, so you’re just unlucky to come across one of the others.

For example, an off-peak return Hove-London Victoria has restriction code B1 and no break of journey restrictions. https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=HOV&dest=VIC&expert=on&flow=2&multi=0&fare=12&tkt=SVR

 

[akm]

Are there good reasons for this random restriction, or is it just the UK rail industry being awkward for the heck of it again? Why bar it on the outward portion but not the return?

SailRail tickets massively undercut 'normal' tickets. For example, Brighton to Belfast via Cairnryan is £63.00, valid at any time...

 

[30907]

BR did it for years on Saver tickets. Not sure why.

Similar reason to the Lancaster/Preston one. To avoid undercutting.

Example from memory: Savers (or their predecessors) London to Scotland were unrestricted outward (uhderstandably back in the 80s); London to Newcastle there was a morning restriction (equally understandable).

 

[amahy]

SailRail tickets massively undercut 'normal' tickets. For example, Brighton to Belfast via Cairnryan is £63.00, valid at any time...

I can see a point for SailRail, but not an ordinary off-peak ticket. Other than the obvious, “don't travel at peak time”.

As far as I'm aware an off peak return from Hove to London Victoria doesn't have such ticket restriction codes preventing a break of journey which apply to it, but I'll be sure to double check this in future. This instance at Clapham Junction was very frustrating as the staff member seemed to insist that the ticket wouldn't let me out before Victoria, which was the ticket's destination. In this case the ticket did open that barrier and let me out which led me to think that break of journey must have been valid with this ticket. This has happened a few times now. Has anyone else had a similar experience or know why staff may be unwilling to permit such breaks of journey?

I often break my journey at stations with revenue protection, most often Shrewsbury. It’s normally the barriers that cause issues, rather than RPIs. In Shrewsbury’s case, the barriers tend to let you out, but not back in. It’s amazing that seemingly straightforward issues like this haven’t yet been resolved.

 

[The exile]

Are there good reasons for this random restriction, or is it just the UK rail industry being awkward for the heck of it again? Why bar it on the outward portion but not the return?

Very few of the weird “awkwardnesses” were originally that. Most stem directly or indirectly from trying to make concessions (and the plugging unintended loopholes). As I fear we’re likely to discover, “simplifying” usually means “removing the bargains “.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Similar reason to the Lancaster/Preston one. To avoid undercutting.
Example from memory: Savers (or their predecessors) London to Scotland were unrestricted outward (uhderstandably back in the 80s); London to Newcastle there was a morning restriction (equally understandable).

Avanti (and Virgin before them) have a "no break of journey" restriction VK on off-peak North Wales-London tickets, because they have a wider availability than the almost-universal ICWC restriction 2C. It prevents passengers from Chester/Wrexham/Shrewsbury from buying the more flexible fares and starting/finishing short.

The latter restricts off-peak arrivals at Euston to after 1130, while the "Welsh" VK tickets allow arrival from 1000, and have no evening return restriction.

However these more-flexible tickets aren't available at Welsh stations Wrexham/Ruabon/Chirk/Gobowen, and only a few Welsh stations close to Shotton on the Borderlands line.

Thus you have VK restriction on stations Shotton to Penyffordd, but 2C restriction closer to Wrexham and at Hawarden Bridge (and on the Wirral).

There's a similar setup from Cambrian stations (code VJ), and stations north of Preston, as mentioned above.
It's to protect the revenue into London from the extensive "2C" zone which contains all the large population centres on/near the WCML.

 

[Kite159]

I've run into issues with agency gateline staff in the past at Basingstoke when wanting to break a trip towards Reading. It's like they don't understand the concept of break of journey

 

[Hadders]

Break of journey is allowed on most, but not all, 'walk-up' tickets.

I've never been refused break of journey but I always avoid using the phrase 'break of journey' as rightly or wrongly it tends to wind some people up. You're better off saying something like:

'Can I pop out for some supplies' or can 'I just pop out for a smoke'

 

[Snow1964]

I've run into issues with agency gateline staff in the past at Basingstoke when wanting to break a trip towards Reading. It's like they don't understand the concept of break of journey

It's classic railway having its cake and eating it too.

Make ticketing restrictions complicated for its own benefits
Use gate line staff that doesn't want to pay to train up properly

 

[Djgr]

It's classic railway having its cake and eating it too.

Make ticketing restrictions complicated for its own benefits
Use gate line staff that doesn't want to pay to train up properly

Reference Cake and eat:

It's like issuing Penalty Fares for technicalities, whilst not publicising Delay Repay for service failures

 

[Sonic1234]

I've never been refused break of journey but I always avoid using the phrase 'break of journey' as rightly or wrongly it tends to wind some people up.

I've had the opposite experience, staff thinking a ticket is not valid but then when you say "break of journey" it's like a lightbulb goes on in their head "Oh, that thing from training, never understood it but this guy seems to. Open gate"

Friction with staff due to poor training and overly complex rules is a big problem. The ungated station is a precious thing.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a gentle reminder that this thread is for the discussion of "Staff being difficult over attempts to break journey"

I have split off some posts that were proposing the abolition of peak fares in England to this thread:

Should peak fares in England be abolished?

Moderator note - split from: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/staff-being-difficult-over-attempts-to-break-journey.302147/ I can see a point for SailRail, but not an ordinary off-peak ticket. Other than the obvious, “don't travel at peak time”. We should just scrap peak times. (And...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[GilfachFargoed]

Something I seem to be noticing more and more on the railway are staff at ticket gates trying to say that my ticket is not valid for a break of journey when presented.

There have been a few instances of this lately, like when I showed a Hove to London Victoria ticket at the barriers at Clapham Junction, the member of staff at the Grant Road exit seemed adamant I couldn't exit with it and when I protested that staff at the ticket office always know the validity and will permit it, they insisted that that necessitate me going all the way to the other side of the station to talk to someone at the ticket office. After putting it through the barriers the ticket did come back out and I was able to exit.

But this seems to be happening over and over again in my experience and I am getting really sick of it.

My understanding is that unless the ticket is an advance then a break of journey is always permitted.

Could the issue not have been avoided by trying the ticket in the gates before getting into a conversation?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Could the issue not have been avoided by trying the ticket in the gates before getting into a conversation?

The risk there is that the ticket barrier swallows the ticket as being used.

 

[[.n]]

Could the issue not have been avoided by trying the ticket in the gates before getting into a conversation?

I'm always loathe to try that in case the gate retains the ticket

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm always loathe to try that in case the gate retains the ticket

An advantage of e-tickets is that that can't happen...

 

[Jim the Jim]

Slanging match with whom? Some barrier operative who is unlikely to know the rules and regulations for every ticket and every journey? Why are the rules so complicated anyway? This is exactly what puts people off public transport.

It's not as if it's rare for tickets to allow break of journey, the right thing for a member of staff who doesn't know the exact rules in this situation is to give the passenger the benefit of the doubt.

(Or to just check the restriction code themselves which takes about 3 seconds.)

 

[Belperpete]

I have found that staff seem to adopt a "computer says no" attitude with e-tickets, if the barriers reject it then they just assume isn't valid. Whereas with a CCST type ticket, they are quite happy to wave me through, presumably because they are so used to barriers rejecting valid CCST. It is one of the reasons I prefer CCST and avoid e-tickets if I can.

I regularly break journey at Shrewsbury. It seems to be totally random whether the barriers accept my ticket or not, but I have never had any problem with the staff letting me through. One of the few places where I have had a problem, though, is Clapham Junction, where the member of staff eventually allowed me out, but said he wouldn't let me back in. Fortunately on my return, I was let in without any issue by someone else.

I have found that barriers will reject a ticket if you try and re-enter too soon after exiting. Even the barriers at Birmingham New St, that seem happy to accept just about any ticket, will sometimes do this.

I always try the barriers first, and have never had a barrier swallow my ticket when breaking journey. It is quite common for staff to insist that you try using the barrier before they will let you out manually. I presume that barriers only swallow tickets at the final destination station. There are many instances where you have to pass through barriers during a journey, where there would be big problems if they swallowed tickets before the final destination. The only places I would be wary is if trying to break journey within a station group, e.g. if travelling from say East Croydon to St Pancras and breaking my journey at London Bridge, I would be wary of the exit barriers there assuming that I had reached my London destination.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I always try the barriers first, and have never had a barrier swallow my ticket when breaking journey. It is quite common for staff to insist that you try using the barrier before they will let you out manually.

The reason for this is to get a scan on the ticket, that's all. Some fraudsters used to get staff to let them out to avoid getting a scan so they could later refund the ticket. The new refund rules of course prevent this, but old habits die hard.

 

[whoosh]

Could the issue not have been avoided by trying the ticket in the gates before getting into a conversation?

Possibly, but if travelling on a child ticket or a railcard ticket, sometimes the barriers are set up to reject these to force a manual check by staff (that the person has a valid railcard, or isn't an adult).

If the OP was travelling on a railcard this may have necessitated speaking with a staff member anyway.

Also, as Clapham Junction is close to Victoria, perhaps the OP thought there was a risk that the barrier would 'eat' the ticket, thinking it had been completely used, when it had not been. [There is also a problem with barriers 'eating" where passengers have wanted to claim 'delay repay' but then don't have their ticket anymore!]

 

[Belperpete]

Possibly, but if travelling on a child ticket or a railcard ticket, sometimes the barriers are set up to reject these to force a manual check by staff (that the person has a valid railcard, or isn't an adult).
If the OP was travelling on a railcard this may have necessitated speaking with a staff member anyway.

But surely you would still try using the barrier first, before going to the member of staff? Only if it is a station you regularly use, and you know that your ticket is always rejected, would it make sense not to.

It does seem to be totally random. I have had a cross London ticket be rejected at every step of my journey, such that I was thinking there must be something wrong with the mag strip, only for the barrier at my final destination station to quite happily accept it!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It does seem to be totally random. I have had a cross London ticket be rejected at every step of my journey, such that I was thinking there must be something wrong with the mag strip, only for the barrier at my final destination station to quite happily accept it!

They seem to have changed things recently so that, except on the Underground, any off peak ticket that uses the "Network Rule" to cross London ahead of the time from which you can leave London forwards will be rejected at the barriers on the way to London, including at the terminus before crossing London. Most annoying, and guaranteed to cause problems if any member of the barrier staff is not aware of the "Network Rule".

 

[Belperpete]

They seem to have changed things recently so that, except on the Underground, any off peak ticket that uses the "Network Rule" to cross London ahead of the time from which you can leave London forwards will be rejected at the barriers on the way to London, including at the terminus before crossing London. Most annoying, and guaranteed to cause problems if any member of the barrier staff is not aware of the "Network Rule".

Does this include off peak tickets that have no time restrictions?