Should peak fares in England be abolished?

[mmh]

Moderator note - split from:

Staff being difficult over attempts to break journey

Something I seem to be noticing more and more on the railway are staff at ticket gates trying to say that my ticket is not valid for a break of journey when presented. There have been a few instances of this lately, like when I showed a Hove to London Victoria ticket at the barriers at Clapham...

www.railforums.co.uk

I can see a point for SailRail, but not an ordinary off-peak ticket. Other than the obvious, “don't travel at peak time”.

We should just scrap peak times. (And possibly SailRail, to Dublin at least). That would be real fares simplification.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We should just scrap peak times. (And possibly SailRail, to Dublin at least). That would be real fares simplification.

LNER does in a way with the fare-increase trial.

If you mean England should follow Scotland in reducing Anytime fares to the present Off Peak ones, where's the extra subsidy coming from? Northern could probably do it as the difference is usually small, but anything with London at one end is going to struggle as the difference is so huge.

 

[The exile]

LNER does in a way with the fare-increase trial.

If you mean England should follow Scotland in reducing Anytime fares to the present Off Peak ones, where's the extra subsidy coming from? Northern could probably do it as the difference is usually small, but anything with London at one end is going to struggle as the difference is so huge.

And if the money were found - how would you cope with the overcrowding?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And if the money were found - how would you cope with the overcrowding?

Providing more capacity would be part of that necessary additional subsidy.

 

[The exile]

Providing more capacity would be part of that necessary additional subsidy.

In many cases that would run into the billions as we are at (or very close to) the physical limits of capacity. What would help is a deliberate dispersal of economic activity (and thus movement of people) to places where there is capacity - but that doesn’t have a good history. Now, government departments….

 

[mmh]

LNER does in a way with the fare-increase trial.

If you mean England should follow Scotland in reducing Anytime fares to the present Off Peak ones, where's the extra subsidy coming from? Northern could probably do it as the difference is usually small, but anything with London at one end is going to struggle as the difference is so huge.

I'm not certain it would have that significant an impact on subsidy. Fares account for well less than half the cost, so even a fair decrease isn't going to have as much of an impact in the scheme of things.

The difference isn't always so huge to London either. Tomorrow morning, I could book advances now to arrive at Euston at 0830 or 0930 for £54. The anytime single walk-up is £180.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 May 2026 ==

And if the money were found - how would you cope with the overcrowding?

I would expect that to be largely self-regulating. Commuters use the trains at busy times because they have to, not because they want to. Leisure travellers will time themselves around the things they're going to, the hotels they're checking into, and avoiding the commuters.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 May 2026 ==

In many cases that would run into the billions as we are at (or very close to) the physical limits of capacity. What would help is a deliberate dispersal of economic activity (and thus movement of people) to places where there is capacity - but that doesn’t have a good history. Now, government departments….

Indeed. We're at the limits of capacity _in certain places, at certain times_. We need to get away from the mindset that capacity, fare management, etc is all about getting to a desk in London for 9am. (the south east isn't "full" as anyone whose used Thameslink in the middle of the day knows.)

 

[Mainline421]

And if the money were found - how would you cope with the overcrowding?

Simple, don't sell Advances for Peak time trains. This also removes the cliff edge on the first Super-Off Peak timed departure.

 

[yorksrob]

LNER does in a way with the fare-increase trial.

If you mean England should follow Scotland in reducing Anytime fares to the present Off Peak ones, where's the extra subsidy coming from? Northern could probably do it as the difference is usually small, but anything with London at one end is going to struggle as the difference is so huge.

Abolishing peak on non-London fares would be a start - although here in West Yorks, we have more peak restrictions than twenty years ago, so we're still going in the wrong direction.

 

[Richardr]

Moderator note - split from:

Staff being difficult over attempts to break journey

Something I seem to be noticing more and more on the railway are staff at ticket gates trying to say that my ticket is not valid for a break of journey when presented. There have been a few instances of this lately, like when I showed a Hove to London Victoria ticket at the barriers at Clapham...

www.railforums.co.uk

We should just scrap peak times. (And possibly SailRail, to Dublin at least). That would be real fares simplification.

Wouldn't the increase in what are existing off-peak fares in order to match the peak fare push a significant number of people off the railways? Do you think simplification would offset that in total?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Moderator note - split from:

Staff being difficult over attempts to break journey

Something I seem to be noticing more and more on the railway are staff at ticket gates trying to say that my ticket is not valid for a break of journey when presented. There have been a few instances of this lately, like when I showed a Hove to London Victoria ticket at the barriers at Clapham...

www.railforums.co.uk

We should just scrap peak times. (And possibly SailRail, to Dublin at least). That would be real fares simplification.

Isn’t that exactly what LNER have done on routes such as London to Edinburgh - scrapped peak times?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn’t that exactly what LNER have done on routes such as London to Edinburgh - scrapped peak times?

In effect yes, but I think what people are calling for is for the new all-encompassing walk-up fare to be rather nearer the off-peak than the Anytime.

ScotRail's scheme of removing the Off Peaks* but reducing the Anytimes is all very well though it does pose a small risk of a future administration just cranking the Anytimes back up but not reintroducing the Off Peak, thus leaving us in pretty much the same position as we are on the LNER trial routes.

* They are still there but with no restriction code (not 8A - no code at all), so you can buy them, but there is no reason to do so other than for stuff like the over 55s card, though for most use cases it doesn't matter if you buy that or the Anytime**. I suspect they will disappear in due course when that has been resolved.

** If intending to make one's outward journey over multiple days the Anytime is of course the one to choose. But that's the only case where there is any practical difference, and for Anytime *Day* Singles and Returns there is no difference at all.

 

[NCT]

Ask Rachel Reeves and the bond market.

 

[berneyarms]

Moderator note - split from:

Staff being difficult over attempts to break journey

Something I seem to be noticing more and more on the railway are staff at ticket gates trying to say that my ticket is not valid for a break of journey when presented. There have been a few instances of this lately, like when I showed a Hove to London Victoria ticket at the barriers at Clapham...

www.railforums.co.uk

We should just scrap peak times. (And possibly SailRail, to Dublin at least). That would be real fares simplification.

Why should SailRail tickets to/from Dublin be scrapped?

 

[brad465]

I'd say it depends on the route: I think any routes that are contra-peak flow should not have peak fares charged, such as any route heading out of London in the morning peak that doesn't go to another major city.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd say it depends on the route: I think any routes that are contra-peak flow should not have peak fares charged, such as any route heading out of London in the morning peak that doesn't go to another major city.

It used to be the case that Anytime Day Single fares in the South East were asymmetric, with the fare towards London being notably higher than that away from it (and an Anytime Day Return basically being the sum of the two). That's not been the case for a while though in most cases.

In the Oval area there aren't evening restrictions towards London which is sort of that.

 

[mmh]

Why should SailRail tickets to/from Dublin be scrapped?

Because I'd question (hence 'possibly') subsidising foreign travel.

 

[blimmo]

In Japan they regard the concept of charging higher fares at peak times as ludicrous. They seem to get along fine without peak premiums so I am beginning to come around to the view that it's mostly just a way of getting more money out of people that can't avoid them.

 

[quantinghome]

In Japan they regard the concept of charging higher fares at peak times as ludicrous. They seem to get along fine without peak premiums so I am beginning to come around to the view that it's mostly just a way of getting more money out of people that can't avoid them.

Fine if you've built the capacity. UK peak time trains are pretty full.

 

[blimmo]

I think there's a reasonable argument that, as long as you make it clear which the busy trains are, the people that can shift their travel away from the peaks will anyway since they don't want to be on a train standing either.

 

[HSTEd]

And if the money were found - how would you cope with the overcrowding?

Overcrowding is, to a large degree, self limiting.

 

[yorksrob]

I think we should probably look at what happens North of the border and learn from their experience. Does the sky fall in there due to overcrowding ? Does it leave a huge revenue hole, or is it a more manageable revenue gap that's likely to close over time.

One of the benefits of being part of a devolved United Kingdom is the potential to learn from other parts of the country. What works, best practice etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In Japan they regard the concept of charging higher fares at peak times as ludicrous. They seem to get along fine without peak premiums so I am beginning to come around to the view that it's mostly just a way of getting more money out of people that can't avoid them.

Did anyone ever claim it wasn't? (Plus a small element of pricing people onto less busy trains).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2026 ==

I think we should probably look at what happens North of the border and learn from their experience. Does the sky fall in there due to overcrowding ? Does it leave a huge revenue hole, or is it a more manageable revenue gap that's likely to close over time.

You could probably extrapolate ScotRail to Northern/TPE, the difference between peak and off peak was classically fairly small on those. IC with London at one end rather less so - off peak walk up fares are often half to a third of peak, that's a big difference.

 

[urbophile]

And if the money were found - how would you cope with the overcrowding?

Would that be a significant problem since most people, if they had a choice, wouldn't travel at peak times anyway? It would just be less of a complication for those situations when such travel was unavoidable.

 

[yorksrob]

Did anyone ever claim it wasn't? (Plus a small element of pricing people onto less busy trains).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2026 ==



You could probably extrapolate ScotRail to Northern/TPE, the difference between peak and off peak was classically fairly small on those. IC with London at one end rather less so - off peak walk up fares are often half to a third of peak, that's a big difference.

Indeed - what used to be the "Regional Railway" in old money.

 

[brad465]

Simple, don't sell Advances for Peak time trains. This also removes the cliff edge on the first Super-Off Peak timed departure.

The Super-Off Peak cliff edge is a particular problem with certain GWR trains out of Paddington: for Bristol Temple Meads the first super-off peak IIRC is 10:30, while for Taunton and Exeter it's the 10:36 (and is usually only 5-car). The 10:03 is Super-Off Peak for Cornish stations, but not for Exeter-Plymouth. I haven't sampled all of them, but if they have surplus capacity, then making all morning trains going west out of Paddington Super-Off Peak could take pressure off busy services in the hours that follow.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I think we should probably look at what happens North of the border and learn from their experience. Does the sky fall in there due to overcrowding ? Does it leave a huge revenue hole, or is it a more manageable revenue gap that's likely to close over time.

One of the benefits of being part of a devolved United Kingdom is the potential to learn from other parts of the country. What works, best practice etc.

LNER also seem to view their removal of peak/off-peak pricing as a success.

 

[andy33gmail]

Would that be a significant problem since most people, if they had a choice, wouldn't travel at peak times anyway? It would just be less of a complication for those situations when such travel was unavoidable.

That is how roads manage congestion - apart from a few niche cases. London congestion tax being another example.

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Another issue with peak fares if they don't necessarily map that accurately to carriage loading. For example if you want to travel half way to London on a peak train, there will be plenty of capacity in a seat that'll later be re-used by one of commuters in dormitories like Hitchin or Broxborne. Very early trains also may well have spare capacity - i.e. *before* the morning peak.

 

[WideRanger]

Fine if you've built the capacity. UK peak time trains are pretty full.

There is a clear acceptance in Japan that when commuting in a major cities (unless you pay the supplement to travel in the 'Green Car' or on the various 'Liner' or equivalent services) then if you travel at peak time, the experience will be horrible. So folks are informed. And there is no pretence that it will be the nicest part of people's day.

 

[mmh]

In Japan they regard the concept of charging higher fares at peak times as ludicrous. They seem to get along fine without peak premiums so I am beginning to come around to the view that it's mostly just a way of getting more money out of people that can't avoid them.

Fine if you've built the capacity. UK peak time trains are pretty full.

This will be the Japan that's infamous for having staff who push passengers on to get the doors closed.

 

[Manutd1999]

Peak fares for long-distance service are pointless IMO, it's a blunt tool where we have better methods available. Much better to have an actual demand management system via advance-only for IC services (i.e. the LNER trial).

There's also a good argument for scrapping them in city regions in favour of a simpler, flat-fare type arrangement. Simplicity is key here and passengers are more likely to put up with busier services for short distances.

There may be an argument for keeping them on slightly longer commuter routes, mostly towards London, where they can play a role in reducing demand whilst keeping flexibility. Whether it's worth it for just this subset of routes, I'm not so sure...