cj_1985
Member
But is this SWR (First/MTR) or SWR (DfTO) that have viewed them in this way?
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SWR Class 458/4s: fleet status and withdrawal updates
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Goldfish62
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Viewed what in what way?
Big Jumby 74
Established Member
You beat me to it. If the poster wishes a worthwhile response, they need to be more specific.
cj_1985
Member
Troublesome and surplus to requirements
Goldfish62
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If First/MTR viewed them as not surplus to requirements I'd be interested to know what they thought they could used for!
Big Jumby 74
Established Member
The 458's were due for disposal as per 455, 456 and 707, with the introduction of 701 (both 10 and 5 car). It is only a quirk of timing, Covid for one, and delayed introduction of 701 for reasons various, that has given the 458's an extended but temporary life extension.
NSEWonderer
Established Member
Most people forget that 458s would have gone a lot sooner had the 442s not be scrapped. The 442s were the original plan to displace several of the 450s on the Portsmouth direct line due to their 3+2 seating which made them very unsuitable in the hustle and bustle hours.
442s ended up proving too unreliable to go forward with that plan so they ended up going for the next best thing in the 458s, refreshing them and putting in the more suitable 2+2 seating and gearing up to run them down to the PDL before covid hit and of course during the trials and testings more issues and problems arrose.
The plan inevitably hit the can because of the continued 701 delay and the traveling patterns never returned to what at the time desperately needed the project. Financially the cost of the upgrades falls on the ROSCO and SWR only bear some of that effect by higher leasing but ultimately the loss if any falls on Porterbrook.
SWR whilst it didnt use the refurbished 458s on the plan they were intended for, have got use of them on the Windsor lines, helping to relieve what would have been major gap issues due to lack of stock during the height of the 701 delays.
Porterbrook may or may not find another TOC interested in the units, personally I doubt they will as the 458s are a microfleet of which arent in the greatest of shape.
Quite a few units are running about with TCU issues, which are often isolated these days and incases the isolations have been there for a several months. Porterbrook would have to pull something spectacular to be able to find anyone willing to take 458s now at a time when most TOCs are trying to simplify their fleet by having more of the same type than multiple different sub units and classes.
How much of this is legible only one will know as im half awake and writing this
442s ended up proving too unreliable to go forward with that plan so they ended up going for the next best thing in the 458s, refreshing them and putting in the more suitable 2+2 seating and gearing up to run them down to the PDL before covid hit and of course during the trials and testings more issues and problems arrose.
The plan inevitably hit the can because of the continued 701 delay and the traveling patterns never returned to what at the time desperately needed the project. Financially the cost of the upgrades falls on the ROSCO and SWR only bear some of that effect by higher leasing but ultimately the loss if any falls on Porterbrook.
SWR whilst it didnt use the refurbished 458s on the plan they were intended for, have got use of them on the Windsor lines, helping to relieve what would have been major gap issues due to lack of stock during the height of the 701 delays.
Porterbrook may or may not find another TOC interested in the units, personally I doubt they will as the 458s are a microfleet of which arent in the greatest of shape.
Quite a few units are running about with TCU issues, which are often isolated these days and incases the isolations have been there for a several months. Porterbrook would have to pull something spectacular to be able to find anyone willing to take 458s now at a time when most TOCs are trying to simplify their fleet by having more of the same type than multiple different sub units and classes.
How much of this is legible only one will know as im half awake and writing this
Invincible
Member
In about 2009 the Bournemouth and Wimbledon depots did some major work to the 458s to make them very reliable.
But by 2017 the new SWR franchise was to replace all 455s and 458s with 701s, even though the 458s had life left.
Not sure why the 458/4s doing the suburban services, rather than the PDL, have deteriorated, maybe SWR are doing the minimum amount of maintenance due to the short lease?
Goldfish62
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It's been long time since the 458s had high levels of reliability! They returned to being SWT's most unreliable train from 2014 onwards when converted to 458/5. They've continued to languish ever since.
Invincible
Member
I expect the Junipers could be returned to high levels of reliability, but may require time and TLC, which depots now may not have?.
Goldfish62
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Wimbledon have a track record of achieving the best possible reliability for their units. If they've not managed it with the 458s since 2014 I doubt if anyone can do so now.
D365
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The DfTO management consists of largely the same people as First Group before it.
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Goldfish62
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Apart from the most significant and influential one - the MD - who also now runs his part of Network Rail as apart of the SWR Integrated Rail Business.
Siemens Staines
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If the allocation data to RTT is correct, then 458401 has returned to service today after 9 months out of service
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
Realtime Trains | 2S05 0522 London Waterloo to Weybridge | 05/05/2026
Real-time train running information for 2S05 0522 departure from London Waterloo to Weybridge on 05/05/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
Wow I certainly didn't expect that given their imminent withdrawal!If the allocation data to RTT is correct, then 458401 has returned to service today after 9 months out of service
Realtime Trains | 2S05 0522 London Waterloo to Weybridge | 05/05/2026
Real-time train running information for 2S05 0522 departure from London Waterloo to Weybridge on 05/05/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
Siemens Staines
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I do not know the details, but it is possible that the condition of their lease is that they have to be returned to Porterbrook in a serviceable condition irrespective of what may happen to them in the future - even if that future is scrap.
Goldfish62
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That's usually the case.
Fair enough, that does make sense for a recently refurbished fleet.
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
On page 39 of Rail 1060, Laurence Bowman is quoted as saying the first 458s will be withdrawn in a couple of weeks - which could well mean a couple of weeks from the interview date rather than publication date, in which case around now.
He also states later on the same page that the suburban fleet will be a single simple type - meaning the 701s - by early next year, so yes the 458s are going, and they'll all be gone in around 7 or 8 months from now.
There are no clues given as to where they would go, if anywhere.
He also states later on the same page that the suburban fleet will be a single simple type - meaning the 701s - by early next year, so yes the 458s are going, and they'll all be gone in around 7 or 8 months from now.
There are no clues given as to where they would go, if anywhere.
theres some changes to 2C/2Ss next week, with a couple more 450s running on them it seems
fodphil
Member
Sorry for my ignorance, but do we have a withdrawn by date?
Invincible
Member
The 458 leases expire 2027, but no month given,
www.porterbrook.co.uk
Porterbrook awards Alstom £25m fleet upgrade contract · Porterbrook
could be returned before 2027.
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fodphil
Member
ThanksThe 458 leases expire 2027, but no month given,
could be returned before 2027.Porterbrook awards Alstom £25m fleet upgrade contract · Porterbrook
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Lease ends 21 August 2027, as per SWR franhcise contract: https://assets.publishing.service.g...western-trains-ltd-national-rail-contract.pdfThe 458 leases expire 2027, but no month given,
could be returned before 2027.Porterbrook awards Alstom £25m fleet upgrade contract · Porterbrook
They could be returned early but only if either there is an other lease lined up for them or if SWR pay off the entire lease term.
Goldfish62
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Well, as they're being withdrawn soon I would think that SWR aren't going to want them sitting around on their patch doing nothing and deteriorating for another year so I guess it will be one of these two options.
Goldfish62
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Makes entire sense.
It seems as though 458401 has returned to service.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
Realtime Trains | 2V43 1537 London Waterloo to London Waterloo | 14/05/2026
Real-time train running information for 2V43 1537 departure from London Waterloo to London Waterloo on 14/05/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk