UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[The Ham]

Adminstration costs of collecting tax, I recall a documentary on taxation, tobacco duty was one of the easiest taxes to collect by HMRC, a single HMRC employee would receive data from the tobacco companies and send tax demands on a daily basis, the same method may apply work with the energy companies supplying ZEV charging.
I agree about three p /mile charging scheme, I believe it is a quick measure, a kludge, until more effective measures are placed, consider too the "road tax" measure for ZEVs ,petrol cars are classified by CO2 emissions, petrol cars category A were zero charge, now £20/ year, ZEVs are CO2 free, yet certainly not charged £20/year

At home I have 1 supplier for my electricity, what portion of that is me charging my car, how am I billed differently?

As I said, as someone with a drive and a garage I can bypass my smart charger to charge my car.

As such the tax will be more costly for those without those features.

As I said, it runs the risk of the rich paying less taxes than the poor (again).

 

[thejuggler]

My parents historically have very rarely sold cars, they tend to buy second hand and then run them into the ground.

I'd always thought this was a relatively common practice, is that not the case?

I suppose the masses of leased cars are not used like that, but is it truly a large part of the market now?

Changes to car finance, in particular the advent of PCP, means for many the cost of renting car is now just another monthly bill. £200-500 a month rent payment for three years, rinse and repeat with a new car.

 

[E27007]

At home I have 1 supplier for my electricity, what portion of that is me charging my car, how am I billed differently?

As I said, as someone with a drive and a garage I can bypass my smart charger to charge my car.

As such the tax will be more costly for those without those features.

As I said, it runs the risk of the rich paying less taxes than the poor (again).

Ypur existing charging port may be retrofitted with a smart meter, it may already have one, just requiring activation, new charging ports will already have a smartmeter, metering the electricity delivered to the ZEV, technology of smart meters is tried and tested
Charging from 13Amp wall sockets and not the dedicated ZEV charger will sidestep the system, so congratulations, perfectly legally side-stepping the duty, will the slow charging be an inconvenience?
Those who are well-off do tend to win, they buy goods without loans and interest, they afford better quaIity goods which last longer, when they take loans, enjoy lower interest rates, their creditworthyness, their nice new cars give better safety and fuel economy over the not well-off driving old cars

 

[Noddy]

The charging port would be fitted with a smart meter, metering the electricity delivered to the ZEV

How does the meter know what the source of the electricity is?

 

[E27007]

How does the meter know what the source of the electricity is?

The contract with the supplier, the supplier who supplies electrons to you and you supply money in return

 

[jon0844]

HMRC does not have access to petrol pumps in fuel stations, and does not have access to every newsagent selling cigarettes, and has been collecting petrol duty and tobacco duty for decades.
In the situation of home chargers, there must be a smart billing system in place so the consumption is metered and billed to the household at the appropriate night tariff 7p/kwH,so surely possible for the electricity supplier to add a ZEV duty to the household bill for the meterd charging

A smart meter simply records usage every 30 minutes. It can't tell what the electricity is being used for.

I could use a granny charger to put around 2-3kW into my car at any time, while I could have a single convector heater on in my house at 3kW. How does the meter tell?

A 7kW charger could be 2 heaters, or a combination of heaters, immersion heater, kettle, oven, washer dryer etc.

Personally, I think the price-per-mile idea is dead in the water until the Government explains in detail how it would work. The suggestions so far are all flawed and the only proper way would be a standardised hardware solution fitted to all cars (which isn't going to happen due to the cost) and even then, are you charging for every mile driven by the car - or miles driven on public roads? Also, how do you avoid fraud when everyone will be seeking to circumvent the systems?

It would make more sense to expand congestion zones, given even EVs add to congestion, or charge an annual fee based on motor efficiency, vehicle weight or some other way of making collection easy - and potentially using it as a way to encourage people to buy smaller, lighter, more efficient BEVs.

After all, when EVs are the norm for new sales and ICE cars wither away, there has to be a new way of differentiating between one car and another. It can't be done on emissions, so this is what needs to be looked at IMO - not a price per mile charge.

 

[Noddy]

The contract with the supplier

So you’re also reliant on having accurate data from the supplier, as well as from the charging device itself. As I pointed out earlier all of NI and large numbers of GB residents can’t even get a smart meter (even if they want one), so they’re stuck with a system of estimated readings which would be fun in this scenario.

As someone with a drive I would just use a 13 amp socket in this situation. The car spends most of its evenings/overnight there while I’m at home eating/watching tv/reading/sleeping. It’ll do 30kw every 10 hours which is approx 120 miles range-that’s more than enough for most folk per day.

 

[jon0844]

The contract with the supplier, the supplier who supplies electrons to you and you supply money in return

That's not how it works.

If you have a smart charger and pair it with your energy supplier so it can charge your car at any time of day for a reduced rate (notice here, the EV is getting charged the lower rate even in the day if energy is green) then - in theory - the Government could seek to get access to this data and bill you more, but that would require legislation and then probably a lot more work to ensure that the billing is dead accurate - right down to the last Watt.

But considering Octopus reduces my house energy price if I plug in my car (a side-effect of their system means that when my car gets charged, the entire house is charged at the lower rate) then are you perhaps suggesting that it's everything else in the home that should be charged at a higher price?

 

[Noddy]

the supplier who supplies electrons to you

Not all the electrons that go into my car come from my supplier. Many come from my roof.

What happens when I use my car as a V2L (vehicle to load) or V2H (vehicle to home) battery? I’m not doing any mileage but energy is going into and out of my car (with losses) sometimes via the charger, sometimes not.

 

[E27007]

That's not how it works.

If you have a smart charger and pair it with your energy supplier so it can charge your car at any time of day for a reduced rate (notice here, the EV is getting charged the lower rate even in the day if energy is green) then - in theory - the Government could seek to get access to this data and bill you more, but that would require legislation and then probably a lot more work to ensure that the billing is dead accurate - right down to the last Watt.

But considering Octopus reduces my house energy price if I plug in my car (a side-effect of their system means that when my car gets charged, the entire house is charged at the lower rate) then are you perhaps suggesting that it's everything else in the home that should be charged at a higher price?

I was not aware of how the Octopus system operates, my thinking is one main electricity smartmeter for the entire house including the ZEV charging , and a secondary smart meter exclusively for the ZEV charger, duty could be calculated from the difference preserving your contract arrangement and HMRC receiving their tax.

 

[jon0844]

Not all the electrons that go into my car come from my supplier. Many come from my roof.

What happens when I use my car as a V2L (vehicle to load) or V2H (vehicle to home) battery? I’m not doing any mileage but energy is going into and out of my car (with losses) via the charger.

I forgot about that. Indeed, Octopus is in the process of changing Intelligent Octopus Go and have had to work out a way to measure the energy they provide and what you might get from solar (or a home battery should you have it set to discharge into your car) now that they're imposing a six-hour limit per day (midday-midday).

This would be another way of making it hard for anyone to extract any useful info and legally charge a tax/duty, unless we want to see people being charged a duty on self-generated power. As an aside, HMRC could ask for money if you're exporting a LOT of energy, including if you're charging a battery at one rate to re-sell at another, but that's another argument and isn't connected to your meter data - it's relying on you declaring income like anything else.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2026 ==

I was not aware of how the Octopus system operates, my thinking is one main electricity smartmeter for the entire house including the ZEV charging , and a secondary smart meter exclusively for the ZEV charger, duty could be calculated from the difference preserving your contract arrangement and HMRC receiving their tax.

You have a single meter to your home.

 

[E27007]

Not all the electrons that go into my car come from my supplier. Many come from my roof.

What happens when I use my car as a V2L (vehicle to load) or V2H (vehicle to home) battery? I’m not doing any mileage but energy is going into and out of my car (with losses) sometimes via the charger, sometimes not.

I agree, having to pay HMRC duty in those situations will be not be fair.

 

[HSTEd]

Personally, I think the price-per-mile idea is dead in the water until the Government explains in detail how it would work. The suggestions so far are all flawed and the only proper way would be a standardised hardware solution fitted to all cars (which isn't going to happen due to the cost) and even then, are you charging for every mile driven by the car - or miles driven on public roads? Also, how do you avoid fraud when everyone will be seeking to circumvent the systems?

It is normally possible to detect when "clocking" has occurred with modern electronic odometers.

You could just have the MOT test person, who is already acting as an agent of the state, report the mileage at that time. If any car is found to have been clocked, criminal offence.

For that reason you would have to charge a flat rate on all mileage for all road registered vehicles.
The vast majority of mileage for the vast majority of road registered vehicles will occur on the road system, so I don't see that as a major problem.

 

[E27007]

I forgot about that. Indeed, Octopus is in the process of changing Intelligent Octopus Go and have had to work out a way to measure the energy they provide and what you might get from solar (or a home battery should you have it set to discharge into your car) now that they're imposing a six-hour limit per day (midday-midday).

This would be another way of making it hard for anyone to extract any useful info and legally charge a tax/duty, unless we want to see people being charged a duty on self-generated power. As an aside, HMRC could ask for money if you're exporting a LOT of energy, including if you're charging a battery at one rate to re-sell at another, but that's another argument and isn't connected to your meter data - it's relying on you declaring income like anything else.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2026 ==



You have a single meter to your home.

Does anyone believe it is not possible for Octopus or other suppliers to modify or replace their single metering system with a double meter system?Especially if HMRC are vested with the power to collect duty on electricity for electric mobility

 

[Noddy]

Does anyone believe it is not possible for Octopus or other suppliers to modify or replace their single metering system with a double meter system?Especially if HMRC are vested with the power to collect duty on electricity for electric mobility

Anything is possible. But how much money, as well as political will power, is it worth throwing at? You have to remember there isn’t even a single smart meter in day to day use in Northern Ireland, let alone a double meter system.

 

[The Ham]

Does anyone believe it is not possible for Octopus or other suppliers to modify or replace their single metering system with a double meter system?Especially if HMRC are vested with the power to collect duty on electricity for electric mobility

Still doesn't stop me using my 13amp socket to change my car which would be part of my "existing house" meter. Unless every external socket (including garages) would need to be wired differently so that they were part of the car charging system.

Who's paying for that change? Unless it was a legal requirement for all existing homes, no one is going to be paying out to do that. Then you've got HMRC having to undertake electrical system checks.

 

[Harpers Tate]

1: IF the revenue to be raised is to "fund roads" (by which I mean, to add to the exchequer to be squandered on bureaucrats used for general funding) then I'd suggest it matters not a jot whether it comes from the Mains or from a solar installation or windmill or elsewhere. If electricity fed into the car is to be used as the basis for taxation then all such electricity would properly be taxed.

2: Most dedicated EV chargers do have sufficient "smarts" to be able to monitor and report on their usage. Thus my 2017 vintage head unit could be used as the basis for a tax; it already tells me via my phone app what it has fed into the car and always has, and that same data could equally be gathered for taxation purposes. A separate meter would not be required.

3: However, in order to do any of that, the head unit needs an internet connection. If I chose to do so, I could use it as a dumb 7.4kW outlet with no automated timing (eg for off-peak rates) by simply disconnecting it from my WiFi, in which case it would be unable to report anything to anyone. Whilst I don't know, it might even be feasible to add a separate timer switch into the circuit to maintain my off-peak discount. It doesn't have any long-term memory so it couldn't even be interrogated periodically.

4: And in any case, I could choose as has been said so many times here already, to use instead a regular 13a outlet, the usage of which can not technically be distinguished from any other 13a device such as a heater or kettle. With or without a timer switch.

It therefore seems to me that if usage must be taxed (as it surely must) that can only be reliably done on a mileage basis. And the most efficient way to do that in my view would be retrospectively at MOT time. It doesn't need anything infrastructural or excessively bureaucratic; any MOT tester would be required to collect the np per mile as part of the test fee. Existing systems are there for ensuring MOT compliance. And if a car changes hands between tests, it's a matter between buyer and seller to account for any unpaid mileage in their settlement.

 

[martin butler]

If I am honest, i can't see any way that the government can bring in any road taxation scheme, not when you can't tax the power used , because its going to be very difficult, yes they could tell the energy companies to set a surcharge on the energy dedicated chargers use, but people will find a way round, such as using household 13a switch instead,

they could tax charging stations, such as ones in car parks, in supermarkets, at service stations, which i would think will be the preferred answer, to try to claw back lost revenue, the only other option as I see it will be to fund the roads out of general taxation either via council tax, or an increase in taxation.

 

[The Ham]

The other option is congestion charging, as cars on a road with few other cars isn't too much of an issue.

It's when there are a lot of them where it's an issue.

If you drive within (or enter) a zone you are charged, say, £5 moving into a 3rd or following zone adds a further £1.

Almost no zone would be within settlements of under 9,000, so the vast majority of the rural population would not have to pay to use their cars unless going into a large town. Even then charges would only be applied where congestion is an issue - for example a town with 20,000 but a ring road might not need to change, but a town with a busy crossroads in the middle might do.

 

[jon0844]

The other option is congestion charging, as cars on a road with few other cars isn't too much of an issue.

It's when there are a lot of them where it's an issue.

If you drive within (or enter) a zone you are charged, say, £5 moving into a 3rd or following zone adds a further £1.

Almost no zone would be within settlements of under 9,000, so the vast majority of the rural population would not have to pay to use their cars unless going into a large town. Even then charges would only be applied where congestion is an issue - for example a town with 20,000 but a ring road might not need to change, but a town with a busy crossroads in the middle might do.

This makes more sense. And if you introduced charges in town centres, local residents could be given discounts (based on the registered address of the keeper) or those with disabilities given exemptions entirely. You'd be using the existing equipment used in many places already, with it being relatively cheap to add more.

Of course there would be a backlash for sure, given it plays into the hands of the conspiracy theorists going on about people being banned from driving as part of the '15 minute city' initiatives. But, frankly, anything to make motorists pay more always attracts anger.

 

[SargeNpton]

The other option is congestion charging, as cars on a road with few other cars isn't too much of an issue.

It's when there are a lot of them where it's an issue.

If you drive within (or enter) a zone you are charged, say, £5 moving into a 3rd or following zone adds a further £1.

Almost no zone would be within settlements of under 9,000, so the vast majority of the rural population would not have to pay to use their cars unless going into a large town. Even then charges would only be applied where congestion is an issue - for example a town with 20,000 but a ring road might not need to change, but a town with a busy crossroads in the middle might do.

Which is sort of what Oxford is trialling, causing conspiracy theorists to claim that the city is being locked zones into 15-minute neighborhoods.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I personally prefer parking charging/taxation. There's little point driving into/through town if you don't park, and with phone payments you could easily make it so there is zero free on street parking in Oxford. People don't object to that per se and there's no conspiracy associated with it. If parking in central Oxford was £5/hour minimum hardly anyone would, they'd use the P&R.

 

[N1]

I personally prefer parking charging/taxation. There's little point driving into/through town if you don't park, and with phone payments you could easily make it so there is zero free on street parking in Oxford. People don't object to that per se and there's no conspiracy associated with it. If parking in central Oxford was £5/hour minimum hardly anyone would, they'd use the P&R.

Requires a workplace parking levy as well (which Oxfordshire council should start consulting on this year)

 

[Mawkie]

Well, the much fabled "emergency visit to a great aunt" far away happened on Saturday. Unfortunately for them I had just 48% charge in my car. Facing a 3.5hr trip, and the "emergency", there was no time to wait for 8 hours to charge, scan maps, plan routes, plan an en-route charging schedule, or anything else. Oh, what to do!

Well, obviously I got in the car and let the sat nav work it all out for me* - "OK Grok, plan a route to Cleethorpes". Couple of seconds later, we were on our way.

Sat nav recommended Newark, where we stopped for 21 mins. Just enough time to walk over to the services and use the facilities.

Then continued on to Cleethorpes.

The next day, we returned home, again without planning. Sat nav recommended a charge after 2.5hrs driving at Wyboston, where we charged for 15 minutes.

So there we have it, 7.5hrs driving, 300+ miles, 36 minutes total charging time. No emergency, no drama, nothing significant happened. Just got in and go.

*Total: £31.91 for 72.54 kWh across 36 minutes of charging. At 4.35 miles/kWh, that's roughly 315 miles of range added — about 10p per mile in charging costs - at the most expensive peak rate of 44p per kWh.

 

[Lloyds siding]

Clearly not, or the second hand market would be next to non existent!

It depends on the age of the car. Recently bought (another) 22year old car. It means that I don't get TOO het up when the AirBnB guests over the road back into it (again and again).

 

[trebor79]

Well, obviously I got in the car and let the sat nav work it all out for me* - "OK Grok, plan a route to Cleethorpes". Couple of seconds later, we were on our way.

Oh, I didn't know we had Grok in our Tesla's on these shores! How do you enable it?

 

[Mawkie]

Oh, I didn't know we had Grok in our Tesla's on these shores! How do you enable it?

I normally leave the tech stuff to one of the mini-Mawkies, but I poked around the menus and it's in Audio.

 

[E27007]

Anything is possible. But how much money, as well as political will power, is it worth throwing at? You have to remember there isn’t even a single smart meter in day to day use in Northern Ireland, let alone a double meter system.

I checked Gov website for information on fuel duty tax yield, for all fuels combined, petrol , diesel, Lpg, the yield is a substantial £24 billion per annum, possibly more as it was not clear if the duty figure is pre or post VAT of 20% on fuel duty, an annual yield of £24 billion is not trivial, so as ZEVs take over and the fuel duty yield fades, there may be considerable political willpower to devise a replacement.
I was not aware Northern Ireland does not support smart-meters for billing, I am aware NI is subject to energy policies set by the EU under the Brexit agreement, 20% Vat on domestic electricity in NI and not the 5% VAT for Great Britain. Is there an EU ban on smart meters?
I believe Uk building regulations for new-build residential properties, a ZEV charging point is to be compulsory, perhaps that regulation does not apply to NI.

 

[Noddy]

I checked Gov website for information on fuel duty tax yield, for all fuels combined, petrol , diesel, Lpg, the yield is a substantial £24 billion per annum, possibly more as it was not clear if the duty figure is pre or post VAT of 20% on fuel duty, an annual yield of £24 billion is not trivial, so as ZEVs take over and the fuel duty yield fades, there may be considerable political willpower to devise a replacement.
I was not aware Northern Ireland does not support smart-meters for billing, I am aware NI is subject to energy policies set by the EU under the Brexit agreement, 20% Vat on domestic electricity in NI and not the 5% VAT for Great Britain. Is there an EU ban on smart meters?
I believe Uk building regulations for new-build residential properties, a ZEV charging point is to be compulsory, perhaps that regulation does not apply to NI.

There is no EU ban on smart meters (many EU countries have them), it’s simply that Energy, both policy and the grid itself, is devolved to the NI government (and always has been since NI was formed in 1921 under the Home Rule for Ireland policy). It has nothing to do with the EU. So you are trying to replace a national UK policy - road taxation and fuel duty - with a policy in an area of governance that is fully devolved in one part of the UK. And while you could say just devolve road tax and fuel duty to NI, that will simply fuel (excuse the pun) demands from Scottish and Welsh governments to have fuel duty/road tax devolved to Edinburgh and Cardiff.

For the UK government the only show in town for a direct replacement of lost fuel duty for the exchequer is to look in an area of policy where they have full jurisdiction across the UK. Trying to replace it with a policy in an area that is fully or partially devolved, such as a smart meter system, or equally congestion charging, is going to be a political nightmare.

Side notes and largely unrelated but since you mentioned it:

Domestic energy is 5% VAT in NI like everywhere else in the UK. It has nothing to do with the EU.

Building regulations are devolved to all four governments. England (since June 2022), Wales (March 2023) and Scotland (July 2023) all mandate EV chargers on new builds. AIUI NI building regs don’t currently mandate it. It has nothing to do with the EU.

 

[Bald Rick]

I checked Gov website for information on fuel duty tax yield, for all fuels combined, petrol , diesel, Lpg, the yield is a substantial £24 billion per annum, possibly more as it was not clear if the duty figure is pre or post VAT of 20% on fuel duty, an annual yield of £24 billion is not trivial, so as ZEVs take over and the fuel duty yield fades, there may be considerable political willpower to devise a replacement.

That figure does not include VAT.

AIUI, the duty collected has been falling for some years now; IIRC it was £27bn before COVID. Part of the reason for this is the reduction in duty rates, clearly, but part will be the increasing efficiency of the cars on our roads, not least the 2million EVs and many more than that hybrids.