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First West Yorkshire & York discussion
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YorkRailFan
Established Member
B9TL 37295 has been repainted to Ultraviolet.
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As part of service changes in York from 31st May, timetables have come online on Bustimes. Most interestingly, is the change to the 11.
The 11 will be changed to operate 1bph during the day between Heworth, York and Bishopthorpe skipping the South Bank loop to provide a more direct service between Bishopthorpe and York along Bishopthorpe Road. A new 11A will operate 1bph between Heworth, York and Bishopthorpe and will serve the South Bank loop. Together, there will be 2bph daytimes between Heworth, York and Bishopthorpe, with 1bph serving the South Bank loop.
Noting the timetables, unfortunately it doesn't seem to be a clockface half-hourly service but rather AI reminiscent with unexpected headways.
I wonder if this is in response to East Yorkshire launching an hourly service Monday-Saturday between York & Bishopthorpe direct along Bishopthorpe Road at the end of March. Either way, as this is my local bus route, I'm happy to see the increase in service.
Timetable: https://bustimes.org/services/11a-ashley-park-bridge-acaster-lane
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
As part of service changes in York from 31st May, timetables have come online on Bustimes. Most interestingly, is the change to the 11.
The 11 will be changed to operate 1bph during the day between Heworth, York and Bishopthorpe skipping the South Bank loop to provide a more direct service between Bishopthorpe and York along Bishopthorpe Road. A new 11A will operate 1bph between Heworth, York and Bishopthorpe and will serve the South Bank loop. Together, there will be 2bph daytimes between Heworth, York and Bishopthorpe, with 1bph serving the South Bank loop.
Noting the timetables, unfortunately it doesn't seem to be a clockface half-hourly service but rather AI reminiscent with unexpected headways.
I wonder if this is in response to East Yorkshire launching an hourly service Monday-Saturday between York & Bishopthorpe direct along Bishopthorpe Road at the end of March. Either way, as this is my local bus route, I'm happy to see the increase in service.
Timetable: https://bustimes.org/services/11a-ashley-park-bridge-acaster-lane
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I just wish Heworth had a bus service that ran later than ~6pm
stevieinselby
Established Member
Coastliner 843 buses leave Stonebow at 1822, 1855, 1925, 1955, 2055, 2155 and 2330 on weekdays / 1855, 1955, 2055, 2155 and 2330 on Saturday / 1855, 1955, 2155 and 2330 on Sunday. Evening services into York run at a similar frequency with the last bus at about 2300.I just wish Heworth had a bus service that ran later than ~6pm
YorkRailFan
Established Member
Changes in York from 31st May, including the aforementioned increase to the 11:
www.firstbus.co.uk
Some really positive changes, the 10 is going to a half-hourly clockface timetable Monday-Saturday, although unfortunately the hourly Sunday service isn't clockface. The 11/11A also aren't clockface half-hourly which is disappointing, but the increases in frequency are great to see.
More buses - Service 10 & 11
We're making it easier to get around York from 31st May 2026. We're making it easier to get around York by increasing the frequency of our services on 10 & 11/11A services.
Some really positive changes, the 10 is going to a half-hourly clockface timetable Monday-Saturday, although unfortunately the hourly Sunday service isn't clockface. The 11/11A also aren't clockface half-hourly which is disappointing, but the increases in frequency are great to see.
Not exactly a clock-face timetable. The usual First unmemorable mess of different times for different hours. And why is the Monday timetable different to Tuesday to Friday? Do First actually want people to use their buses?Changes in York from 31st May, including the aforementioned increase to the 11:
More buses - Service 10 & 11
We're making it easier to get around York from 31st May 2026. We're making it easier to get around York by increasing the frequency of our services on 10 & 11/11A services.
Some really positive changes, the 10 is going to a half-hourly clockface timetable Monday-Saturday, although unfortunately the hourly Sunday service isn't clockface. The 11/11A also aren't clockface half-hourly which is disappointing, but the increases in frequency are great to see.
sytransport
Member
Why are people so bothered about pretty timetables? And varying times in the day is obviously going to happen, as with driving anywhere it just takes longer at certain times of the day…
YorkRailFan
Established Member
I don't see any separate timetable for Monday than Tuesday to Friday. Only a Monday-Friday timetable. It is clockface throughout the day with the odd change by 1-2 minutes.
Timetables
Bit weird that. I definitely saw separate timetables for Monday & Tuesday to Friday but can't find them any more.I don't see any separate timetable for Monday than Tuesday to Friday. Only a Monday-Friday timetable. It is clockface throughout the day with the odd change by 1-2 minutes.
Timetables
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Further update. There are a lot of Monday & Tuesday to Friday timetables on this page: https://www.firstbus.co.uk/york/plan-journey/timetables?page=2 I think it might be to do with the May Day Bank Holiday.
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YorkRailFan
Established Member
Yes, if you look some of the Monday only timetables, you'll see that Bank Holiday is listed under the notes section under the service number. It also says under those timetables "Valid on 4/05/2026" which was May Day Bank Holiday.
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List of service changes in West Yorkshire for First published by Metro from 17th May:
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Also reported that Driver Trainer B7RLE 66973 has received the pink "Join A Great Team Today" livery and B9TL 37063 has had Halifax branding removed.
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I don't think people are bothered about pretty timetables but about times being easy to remember. I know when my 3 bus routes from town are between 0845 and 1505 and between 1900 and 2300 as they're the same times past each hour. Between those times I might need to look them up, but not for every bus in going to catch.
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TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I think we all acknowledge that times will change at certain times of the day to reflect traffic levels. However, First's AI garbage is just that and it ends up with a) difficult to remember timetables and b) random waiting at stops to meet timetables.
There is a First route near me which has a consistent journey time for the daytime routes and clockface departures except one at lunchtime still leaves with the clockface but then runs two mins earlier throughout! Even more bizarrely, the route takes longer in the evening/night than daytime!
YorkRailFan
Established Member
Interestingly Yutong E10 68809 is tracking on the 876 today. First has used a Yutong on the 74 to Grassington via Bolton Abbey in previous years but the 876 is certainly a more challenging route with the ascend over Kidstones.
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If you have a turn up and go service, the exact departure times aren't really problematic to the passenger. The problem with AI timetables arise when you have only 3bph (or less frequent) and the timetable isn't clockface with logical, easy to remember times.
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If you have a turn up and go service, the exact departure times aren't really problematic to the passenger. The problem with AI timetables arise when you have only 3bph (or less frequent) and the timetable isn't clockface with logical, easy to remember times.
What I don't understand is why First thinks their variable timetables are more robust. Do the same traffic delays occur at the same times every day? If they have managed to predict that so accurately let's put them in charge of the Department of Transport. Or the Economy!
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
The thing is that most traffic is fairly predictable - heavy in the peaks, perhaps a bit lighter on a Friday and of course, when the schools are off. So operators have always amended times to reflect that. What the First times have is unregulated AI and trying to make it into a precise science; that and using it as a means of disguising PVR reductions by fixing the level of resource and then letting it loose.
One of my local routes has two consecutive Sunday departures arriving in Bath at 1430 and 1530 respectively - they do the 522 from Bristol in 2h10 and 2h03 - a variance like that simply can't be right on a Sunday afternoon.
First random timetable generator is a sure way of putting off potential passengers who just want to know that the bus goes every 30 mins or every hour and not whenever they can be bothered. It looks unprofessional, lazy and unfriendly to passengers. Absolutely hate the company
EnviroExplorer
Member
A photo confirmed this to be 37803 tracking erroneously.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
Ah shame, although the capacity of a decker is certainly needed on the 876!
stevieinselby
Established Member
When First Leeds ran the 74, they had to go the long way round via Embsay and Eastby between Bolton Bridge and Barden Tower, because the high-roofed E10s were too tall for the Bolton Abbey arch, so didn't actually serve Bolton Abbey – not ideal to miss out one of the key attractions on the route and add a completely unnecessary 20 minute diversion to the route. With First Leeds having plenty of regular diesel single-deckers that they could have used, I never understood the logic behind running E10s on it.
The 876 is about 75 miles each way, so 150 miles on the daily diagram plus dead mileage to/from the depot. I don't know what kind of mileage the E10s usually cover, and obviously the faster running would be more of a challenge then they normally see pottering around Halton – but presumably they would get some regen benefit on the downhills? But as you say, the bigger problem would be that you would need two of them to accommodate the number of passengers travelling!
I think the longest route the E10’s are regularly on is the 116 to Wakefield
YorkRailFan
Established Member
I'm surprised First never ran the E10 to Bolton Abbey and then turned around to go to Grassington via Cracoe. Transdev & York Pullman did that when the road was closed through Burnsall last February.
The ascend up Kidstones would definitely have used up a lot of the E10's charge, in both directions as well. The usual B9s struggle with that ascend, especially when full!
stevieinselby
Established Member
The route was already 20 minutes slower from turning round at Bolton Bridge than if they had followed the usual route, going up to Bolton Abbey itself and either turning in the car park or doing a 3-point turn in a T-junction would have added another 5 minutes to that, making it even less attractive. The whole idea was ridiculous and should never have been tried, no implementation of it was going to work well, wherever they turned the bus round.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
Ultroliner 35541 has been repainted to Ultraviolet.
I can understand doing it once for a bit of promotion for the route and as an experiment. Doing it repeatedly is just inconvenient for passengers though.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
That's definitely the main reason why First have these timetables.
We've seen that in and around Bradford on quite a lot of routes. The AI timetables have been used as a way of extending 2bph out to 3bp2h without First having to openly admit that's exactly what they're doing.
stevieinselby
Established Member
The problem with doing it for one day is that you then have to explain why buses are going to be running very late at certain points in the day, which is hardly going to endear you to passengers! Once you've established that the bus can't fit through Bolton Abbey arch, it's a non-starter unless there's going to be a day when that bit of road is closed anyway and so you have to divert around the arch regardless, and then you can give Old Sparky a try.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
I think increasing journey times by over 20 minutes multiple times for no apparent reason is also going to make you unpopular with passengers! Possibly more than if it were a one off, and would cause less disruption in the long term. As you say though, an opportunity like the road closures in Burnsall last February would've been perfect for First to give an E10 a go on the route!
Stan Drews
Established Member
- Joined
- 5 Jun 2013
- Messages
- 2,151
Reducing the frequency from 30 to 40 minutes at peak times is often a reflection of increasing congestion meaning the buses need more time to complete their round trip reliably, so no actual PVR reduction, they just need longer to do the same job.
One example from my area.
PM peak departures previously every 30 mins from 1510 to 1810, but poor punctuality.
Now departures at 1510, 1545, 1620, 1655, 1727, 1800, 1835, but with much improved punctuality.
That would probably fit your 2bph to 3bp2h description, however the PVR is the same, and as most of the buses now finish at the depot later than they did previously the operating costs have actually increased.
Changing times in the peak makes sense to ensure a more robust timetable. I don't think the same principle applies during the day.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Whilst I appreciate where @Stan Drews is coming from, and we all understand the need to amend timings during peak, this is definitely the case.
If I look at another one of my local routes (sorry it's not West Yorkshire), it has departures (with journey times in brackets) from Bristol at 0832 (89), 0946 (76), 1043 (77), 1143 (79), 1236 (78), 1331 (83). I get the first one is dealing with the remnants of schools traffic but how a lunchtime journey is 7 mins slower than a morning one... dunno. Where on earth is the data telling them that? Also, these are the Mon-Fri times but the Saturday times 0850, 0943, 1039, 1138, 1241, 1345 - why have not have consistency instead of running 5 mins earlier or later than their weekday equivalent. I will defend operators in the main but this is daft.
Quite - one of my local buses drops from being every 30 minutes to being every 35 or 40 during the peak (used to be every 25 when they added an extra bus during peak times) but more than 50% of departures all day are at the same times past the hour - and all buses leave the first stop at a time ending in 0 or 5, not a completely random, and harder to remember time.