Experiences of service recovery (or lack of) on GTR Great Northern

[Electrostar387]

I watched a pair of 377s split at Horsham today. Within seconds of stopping, a driver was setting up the front cab of the rear unit, and someone was closing the gangway door at the rear of the front unit. The latter was done within 60 seconds. 90 seconds after arrival, the doors were locked and the units divided with the whole process taking 120 seconds. The front portion departed 4.5 minutes after arrival.

At Horsham though both portions remain in passenger service, typically front part to Portsmouth Harbour and rear to Bognor Regis - at Cambridge the rear 4 coaches have to be manually cleared of passengers by the station staff (walk through making sure no one on board and lock coaches) before the detachment takes place. That takes a fair bit of time in itself!

Station staff on Southern are also a lot more involved with doing attachments or detachments, such as doing the internal doors to block-end off the cab before train divides etc.

 

[jon0844]

At Horsham though both portions remain in passenger service, typically front part to Portsmouth Harbour and rear to Bognor Regis - at Cambridge the rear 4 coaches have to be manually cleared of passengers by the station staff (walk through making sure no one on board and lock coaches) before the detachment takes place. That takes a fair bit of time in itself!

Station staff on Southern are also a lot more involved with doing attachments or detachments, such as doing the internal doors to block-end off the cab before train divides etc.

I expect that makes all the difference. Plus if 379s aren't yet giving detailed information via the PIS to explain what's happening, that adds to the potential delay.

 

[Bikeman78]

At Horsham though both portions remain in passenger service, typically front part to Portsmouth Harbour and rear to Bognor Regis - at Cambridge the rear 4 coaches have to be manually cleared of passengers by the station staff (walk through making sure no one on board and lock coaches) before the detachment takes place. That takes a fair bit of time in itself!

Station staff on Southern are also a lot more involved with doing attachments or detachments, such as doing the internal doors to block-end off the cab before train divides etc.

Why does the rear need to be emptied out before the split? The last few passengers can be ushered off the train once the split has happened and doors are released again. In my Horsham example, there would have been 2.5 minutes between the split and the departure of the front portion. That's what happens in Rotterdam. If the Dutch can split a 10 car double decker at peak time in four minutes, there's no reason why Cambridge can't do it.

Clearly the whole system at Cambridge needs a rethink in terms of who does what. For starters, if the train splits in platform 4, most of the passengers waiting to board will naturally wait where the terminating portion stops. Is there any attempt made to move people up the platform before the train arrives?

Regarding the PIS on the 379s, why would they go into service before the PIS is working properly? I guess it worked when they did the peak time King's Lynn trains from Liverpool Street, which divided at Cambridge? Does the driver make an announcement approaching Cambridge.

EDIT: the Dutch units in my Rotterdam example have no auto announcements at all. The destination displays, inside and out, show Vlissingen on the front set and Rotterdam on the rear. The set numbers are displayed inside and the guard will make an announcement telling the passengers which set is terminating short.

 

[Failed Unit]

Is it not helping that Cambridge is not a GTR managed station, I know GTR staff are at the station, however really this isn't Greater Anglia problem. I am sure this was the reason why when the 387s were first introduced the gangways were locked closed.

 

[MikeWM]

Why does the rear need to be emptied out before the split? The last few passengers can be ushered off the train once the split has happened and doors are released again.

Yes, if there is a member of staff on there doing just that anyway, that seems a good time to go through the train and hoover them up while the doors are closed for the split.

Clearly the whole system at Cambridge needs a rethink in terms of who does what. For starters, if the train splits in platform 4, most of the passengers waiting to board will naturally wait where the terminating portion stops. Is there any attempt made to move people up the platform before the train arrives?

There were a couple of manual announcements on Saturday telling people to move along to 4a rather than 4. Given the amount of rain we've had the last couple of months, you can assume people aren't happy going beyond the covered areas of the station until they have to, however.

I've not yet gone to see what is *actually* happening on a weekday evening. Once the weather improves and the nights get lighter, I'll go and have a look I guess.

Regarding the PIS on the 379s, why would they go into service before the PIS is working properly? I guess it worked when they did the peak time King's Lynn trains from Liverpool Street, which divided at Cambridge? Does the driver make an announcement approaching Cambridge.

The 379 introduction feels like a bit of a rushed job - none of the units have working wifi for example. That said, I still don't see why there is a difference from the 387s, which had no obvious issues splitting in the time allocated.

 

[Failed Unit]

Do they still have enough 387s to ensure that only they appear on splitting / joining diagrams?

On the general subject they still don't seem to have a consistant strategy to get trains back on time. On a recent journey the train that formed the 1657 Kings Cross - Letchworth was late starting because of delays on the Fen-Line. They did put us on the fast from Ally Pally and Potters Bar but why not just cut Ally Pally?

Likewise I have seen sets going against the peak running late and stopping everywhere rather then skipping to get the peak ontime. Waiting / Letting the Moorgate go first at WGC is a total lottery.

 

[MikeWM]

The latest rolling 4-week punctuality figures for evening peak services from London to Ely:


(chart showing continuing very poor punctuality)

Obviously this includes Tuesday's events which weren't GN's fault, but these are still really poor figures. I suppose the 'main 5' services (those leaving London between 1700 and 1930) have increased their 'within 5 minutes' arrivals from 31% the last time I posted these figures in early Feb, to 38% now, so there has been a little bit of improvement. Still pretty dreadful though.

 

[MikeWM]

Figures for the last 4 weeks. Showing some improvement - I'd say it now qualifies as 'very poor' rather than 'disastrous'.


(chart showing poor punctuality on London to Ely evening peak services)

Up to 52% of the 'main 5' services arriving within 5 minutes of timetabled, which is poor but definitely better than the 31% we saw a couple of months back.

That said, it's been an unusually uneventful few weeks with no particularly major disruptions.

 

[saismee]

That said, it's been an unusually uneventful few weeks with no particularly major disruptions.

Which shows that the timetable is problematic even without disruption!

 

[MikeWM]

Which shows that the timetable is problematic even without disruption!

Yes - plus worth remembering these services currently have the advantage of bonus recovery time as they are timed to stop at Cambridge South but aren't yet doing so. It seems likely that once those stops are happening, we will have a further slide in timekeeping.

 

[milooo]

It appears the Cambridge services have completely been abandoned after an incident earlier today. (Image is of RTT detailed mode with the majority of the services showing as cancelled)

 

[Bald Rick]

It appears the Cambridge services have completely been abandoned after an incident earlier today. (Image is of RTT detailed mode with the majority of the services showing as cancelled)

A little unfair, given the nature of the incident at Baldock, with police investigating on the line. The service was reinstated as soon as the line was returned by the Police to the railway, and the evening peak has largely run on time. I’m not sure what else could have been done.

 

[MikeWM]

Evening peak figures for the last 4 weeks.


(chart showing continuing poor punctuality on London to Ely evening peak services)

'Main 5' evening services at 48% arriving within 5 minutes of timetabled, down from 52% a month ago. The timetable is 4+ months old now so it looks like around 50% is as good as we're going to get.

Splitting at Cambridge seems to have improved on occasion, but we're still frequently getting long ones. Looking at the 1718 off KGX last week, I see splits taking 8, 10 and 8 minutes on Wed-Thurs-Fri, can't tell how long Mon-Tues took as arrival at Cambridge was early.

 

[rmHawk765]

Have we been able to actually narrow down the root cause? Surely they have ironed out the 379 splitting/joining issues by now...

 

[MasterPhillips]

Have we been able to actually narrow down the root cause? Surely they have ironed out the 379 splitting/joining issues by now...

If it’s anything like my experience of splitting class 387s at Reading, there are so many different causes of delays. Something as simple as a trainee driver, or one that does the process slightly differently, can add additional time. Also depends on how many people are in the set that is detaching .

 

[bramling]

Have we been able to actually narrow down the root cause? Surely they have ironed out the 379 splitting/joining issues by now...

I wouldn’t be surprised there’s an element of GTR not really caring, given that there’s now less than a month of the franchise to run.

For some while I’ve seen little if any evidence of attention to performance on the GN route.

The only thing that seems to be a focus at the moment is revenue protection. There’s been a sharp increase in on-train inspection over the last 3 months or so.

 

[GordonT]

I wouldn’t be surprised there’s an element of GTR not really caring, given that there’s now less than a month of the franchise to run.

One thing that is quite striking to an observer from afar is the alacrity with which the Cambridge-Brighton Thameslink service is "disappeared" in its substantial entirety at the first whiff of disruption along its route.

 

[jon0844]

One thing that is quite striking to an observer from afar is the alacrity with which the Cambridge-Brighton Thameslink service is "disappeared" in its subsrantial entirety at the first whiff of disruption along its route.

Same happens with the 9Jxx services as the drivers are quickly out of position if things go wrong anywhere on the route. Issues near Brighton can knock out all the 9Sxx trains for hours. If the issue is nearer the core then they might be cut for the rest of the day.

 

[Obar123]

Have we been able to actually narrow down the root cause? Surely they have ironed out the 379 splitting/joining issues by now...

They seem to be nearly back to the time of the 387s. One thing I can't understand is the way they split/join.
Stop
Open doors
Close doors
Split/join
Open doors
Close doors
Go

Why can't they do it like SWR do at Bournemouth?
Stop
Split/join
Open doors
Close doors
Go

It takes out one set of opening and closing.
A lot of the problems seem to be being delayed by the stopping or Brighton services and then missing paths on the mainline or platforms because of this.

 

[rmHawk765]

I wouldn’t be surprised there’s an element of GTR not really caring, given that there’s now less than a month of the franchise to run.

And then there's a chance this supposed carelessness doesn't actually go anywhere. I'm not too familiar with the structuring under the DfTO but I'm guessing a lot of the same staff who simply do not care will remain...

The only thing that seems to be a focus at the moment is revenue protection. There’s been a sharp increase in on-train inspection over the last 3 months or so.

Which I guess would make sense, closing into the final weeks. Got to get that money in!

as the drivers are quickly out of position if things go wrong anywhere on the route

This is it. This is the reason why Thameslink just doesn't when anything on their (now far too big) network goes wrong. They have no drivers based in South London so that ceases to exist when something North of the river goes wrong (which, with the state of the Cambridge line as being discussed here, is what usually happens), or further down South. They have no drivers further north at Hitchin/Cambridge/Peterborough so the reverse can occur. They have little way to turn trains around anywhere outside of the core (or even in the core) except London Bridge for northbound trains, so e.g even if they can get a train out from Hornsey -> reverse at Finsbury -> Cambridge they will be reluctant to do so as reversing at Finsbury is a pain. The network inherently lacks resilience which its very nature demands heavily...

 

[philjo]

One thing that is quite striking to an observer from afar is the alacrity with which the Cambridge-Brighton Thameslink service is "disappeared" in its subsrantial entirety at the first whiff of disruption along its route.

They are probably the easiest services to cut at short notice as all stations on the route are still served, the Kings Cross to Cambridge stoppers cover at Ashwell & Morden.

The Horsham - Peterborough services cause more disruption if they are cut back as there are no alternative services for stations north of Hitchin except for the few peak extras from Kings Cross.

 

[frankmoh]

They seem to be nearly back to the time of the 387s. One thing I can't understand is the way they split/join.
Stop
Open doors
Close doors
Split/join
Open doors
Close doors
Go

Why can't they do it like SWR do at Bournemouth?
Stop
Split/join
Open doors
Close doors
Go

It takes out one set of opening and closing.
A lot of the problems seem to be being delayed by the stopping or Brighton services and then missing paths on the mainline or platforms because of this.

I've noticed that Southern like to open the doors twice at Purley too. Granted, the Tattenham train usually arrives 3 minutes before the Caterham train, so I can see why they don't want passengers to wait.

 

[jon0844]

People would go mad if they had to wait for the doors to open, and at least one would likely use the egress rather than wait.

I'm surprised this is done anywhere actually!

 

[Magdalia]

Have we been able to actually narrow down the root cause? Surely they have ironed out the 379 splitting/joining issues by now...

A few weeks ago I watched a Cambridge split as an innocent bystander. I saw it completed in less than 5 minutes so it is achievable.

I'm guessing a lot of the same staff who simply do not care will remain...

I hope that your job doesn't include people management! If the issues are related to the people actually performing the task (and I don't think it is) then good management addresses those issues.

It is also essential to bear in mind that splits and joins at Cambridge involve GTR traincrew but the platform staff are Greater Anglia. Addressing issues needs to involve the management of both, and not much will happen if only one of them is interested.

Same happens with the 9Jxx services as the drivers are quickly out of position if things go wrong anywhere on the route. Issues near Brighton can knock out all the 9Sxx trains for hours. If the issue is nearer the core then they might be cut for the rest of the day.

The issues with lack of resilience on the Cambridge-Brighton and Peterborough-Horsham services were baked into the 2018 timetable with traincrew based at the extremities working throughout. But it is important to remember that it was done that way for a reason, to avoid crew changes in the core, which would have different but similarly significant issues for resilience.

 

[bramling]

It is also essential to bear in mind that splits and joins at Cambridge involve GTR traincrew but the platform staff are Greater Anglia. Addressing issues needs to involve the management of both, and not much will happen if only one of them is interested.

… but GTR do own the platform staff at Letchworth, where it still seems to be routinely taking 7-9 minutes to empty out trains.

The issues with lack of resilience on the Cambridge-Brighton and Peterborough-Horsham services were baked into the 2018 timetable with traincrew based at the extremities working throughout. But it is important to remember that it was done that way for a reason, to avoid crew changes in the core, which would have different but similarly significant issues for resilience.

I’ve always had the impression that, for whatever reason, GTR’s driver diagrams are excessively complex. Almost feel like they’re prepared by a computer which is able to produce very efficient diagrams which work on paper, but collapse like a pack of cards during disruption. Compared to FCC/WAGN days there seem to be a lot of crew reliefs, and an insane amount of “pass” travel - all of which is just asking for things to fall apart during disruption, which is what happens.

 

[MikeWM]

Why can't they do it like SWR do at Bournemouth?
Stop
Split/join
Open doors
Close doors
Go

It takes out one set of opening and closing.

I'd much rather they didn't, doing it this way is really irritating if you're trying to get off the arriving service, particularly if it is running late and/or you have a tight connection.

I clearly recall being on a late TPE service that did this at Leeds a few years back and having to run to catch my connection as a result, I wasn't pleased!

 

[Bikeman78]

They seem to be nearly back to the time of the 387s. One thing I can't understand is the way they split/join.
Stop
Open doors
Close doors
Split/join
Open doors
Close doors
Go

Why can't they do it like SWR do at Bournemouth?
Stop
Split/join
Open doors
Close doors
Go

It takes out one set of opening and closing.
A lot of the problems seem to be being delayed by the stopping or Brighton services and then missing paths on the mainline or platforms because of this.

I watched a pair of 377s split at Horsham again today. Before I had even got off the leading door of the 5th coach, someone had entered the cab at the rear of the 4th coach and started shutting the gangway doors. Seconds later, a driver entered the front cab of rear unit. There was a passenger needing a ramp in the rear set and a trainee member of staff being taught how to split trains. The whole process took two minutes, 23 seconds. The front portion could have departed three minutes after arrival, but the split was completed two minutes before booked departure time.

Interesting to note that the doors did not lock on the stationary front set. The uncouple button was pressed before the doors locked on the rear set. I saw the electrical connector retract and heard air hissing out of the brake pipe. Once the rear unit moved back a few inches, the doors unlocked again almost immediately. Clearly Electrostars can split quickly if the people involved are on the ball. I've not seen a slow split at Horsham.

 

[saismee]

Interesting to note that the doors did not lock on the stationary front set. The uncouple button was pressed before the doors locked on the rear set. I saw the electrical connector retract and heard air hissing out of the brake pipe. Once the rear unit moved back a few inches, the doors unlocked again almost immediately. Clearly Electrostars can split quickly if the people involved are on the ball. I've not seen a slow split at Horsham.

Is it required for units to actually shift apart when splitting? On GA I've seen 755s split, followed by front unit doors opening, closing, then departing while the couplers are still together (but uncoupled). Why can't the first half to depart just pull away without the whole open, close, open close?

Conversely, I've seen GA 720s split the same way as described for electrostars. Difference in the stock/manufacturer (Bombardier vice Stadler), or something else? The 755s came off an ECS working.

 

[Bikeman78]

I'd much rather they didn't, doing it this way is really irritating if you're trying to get off the arriving service, particularly if it is running late and/or you have a tight connection.

I clearly recall being on a late TPE service that did this at Leeds a few years back and having to run to catch my connection as a result, I wasn't pleased!

It is standard practice on NS. Rear portion stops about one metre short, then moves forward, couples, and doors release immediately. Initial stop to door release takes 15-20 seconds. I was on an 800 today which attached at Paddington. Took a bit longer, around 45 seconds, but like NS, the doors unlocked almost straight after the attachment was done.

 

[jon0844]

If you're coupling up and the other unit is already there, empty and ready, then that's perhaps a bit different to the process of splitting.