Delay Repay Threat of Fraud

[zzwiz]

Hi,

A friend of mine is quite worried about a potential delay repay prosecution with Southern.

They have claimed they this person has been researching claims to claim delay repay for on their annual season ticket, the total amount of claims was over 300 and in the last year was more than 100.

A majority of these have been legitimate claims but some have been to a stop further along than usual and set without really thinking.

What is the usual process for next steps here? Southern haven't laid out which claims feel suspicious or what an amount to settle / close this case might be.

Has anyone experienced this with Southern before? And do you have any advice on moving forwards?

Any recommended solicitors to help here?

 

[AlterEgo]

Get a solicitor.

https://makwanas.co.uk/ and https://manaksolicitors.co.uk are two companies experienced in this field. Make no further comment about this online, just deal with a solicitor. Fraud is a serious criminal offence.

 

[greatkingrat]

Is this not just a fishing expedition? While they may suspect that such a high number of claims is unlikely to occur naturally, I doubt they have any conclusive proof that your friend didn't make the journeys claimed for, unless they incriminate themselves.

 

[Belperpete]

You haven't said what Southern have asked for, but your friend needs to be very careful with what information they give to Southern, that they don't inadvertently give incriminating evidence. If they are asked to go to interview, they really should get advice about the advisability of doing so. As previous poster has said, this sounds like a fishing expedition, so your friend needs to be very careful. Remember that it is up to Southern to prove that your friend has committed fraud.

Southern will have spotted something in your friend's claims that has aroused suspicion, as well as the sheer number of them. Most people who travel on a season ticket have a set pattern of travel, for example. If your friend is claiming for trains at seemingly random and inconsistent times and destinations, this will look suspicious. I suggest that your friend looks back through their claim history to try and see what might look suspicious, and how they can justify those journeys.

If your friend is sure that all their claims are genuine, then I would suggest a simple reply to that effect. Otherwise, I agree with the recommendation to engage a solicitor, as saying something that is not true may not end well.

If your friend does decide to engage a solicitor, the solicitor will want information on which to base that advice. It would pay to get as much information as possible ready beforehand. Details of their claim history, and which of them might not be legitimate. And a printout of their journey history if they have a digital ticket.

And whatever they do, your friend needs to ensure that any future claim is completely legitimate.

 

[MotCO]

You haven't said what Southern have asked for, but your friend needs to be very careful with what information they give to Southern, that they don't inadvertently give incriminating evidence. If they are asked to go to interview, they really should get advice about the advisability of doing so. As previous poster has said, this sounds like a fishing expedition, so your friend needs to be very careful. Remember that it is up to Southern to prove that your friend has committed fraud.

Southern will have spotted something in your friend's claims that has aroused suspicion, as well as the sheer number of them. Most people who travel on a season ticket have a set pattern of travel, for example. If your friend is claiming for trains at seemingly random and inconsistent times and destinations, this will look suspicious. I suggest that your friend looks back through their claim history to try and see what might look suspicious, and how they can justify those journeys.

If your friend is sure that all their claims are genuine, then I would suggest a simple reply to that effect. Otherwise, I agree with the recommendation to engage a solicitor, as saying something that is not true may not end well.

If your friend does decide to engage a solicitor, the solicitor will want information on which to base that advice. It would pay to get as much information as possible ready beforehand. Details of their claim history, and which of them might not be legitimate. And a printout of their journey history if they have a digital ticket.

And whatever they do, your friend needs to ensure that any future claim is completely legitimate.

The other thing to add is not to say anything that is untrue; you don't have to incriminate yourself - you can always say 'no comment'.

The usual advice is not to attend interviews, and definitely not without legal assistance.

You also mention going beyond the normal station. Does that mean your friend travelled beyond the limit of the ticket, and claimed a delay repay on that extended journey without having a valid ticket? Or is your friend worried that they have been caught over-travelling - this seems unlikely since how would Southern know? If they over-travelled, how did they manage to exit the station unless there were no barriers?

 

[Belperpete]

You also mention going beyond the normal station. Does that mean your friend travelled beyond the limit of the ticket, and claimed a delay repay on that extended journey without having a valid ticket? Or is your friend worried that they have been caught over-travelling - this seems unlikely since how would Southern know? If they over-travelled, how did they manage to exit the station unless there were no barriers?

I think the advice to not provide incriminating information also applies to answering this. But these are things the OP's friend needs to consider, especially if advising a solicitor.

 

[zzwiz]

So just got additional context:

1. There have been 3 emails asking for an explanation as to why journeys were made outside of usual patterns and lack of tap data (no specific routes just generally)
2. All responses from my friend were non-descript and mentioned potential reasoning (no specifics or hard committal) despite not knowing which journeys that are problematic
3. Southern said these responses were unsatisfactory and don't account for the lack of tap data and the case passed to fraud team for review
4. They recommended getting legal counsel

Would anyone be able to explain the usual flow of this situation? What the next response mage be? No actual journeys have been mentioned yet that seem suspicious.

Would the fraud team then escalate in some way? How does that usually look?

My friend is seeking legal counsel.

 

[AlterEgo]

The escalation comes in the form of either a private prosecution or a knock on the door from the police. The company may well be open to settle the case but where fraud has been committed the best way to protect yourself is to get a solicitor. You can be jailed for fraud.

 

[MotCO]

At what stage will Southern identify the journeys they are questioning, since without this detail, it's hard to provide explanations? Surely this must come before a private prosecution or knock on the door?

 

[AlterEgo]

At what stage will Southern identify the journeys they are questioning, since without this detail, it's hard to provide explanations? Surely this must come before a private prosecution or knock on the door?

The knock on the door could come at any time. Usually when you defraud someone it's actually the first thing that happens to you and you don't get into this protracted dispute with the victim about exactly how much, if any, fraud you've been doing.

 

[tatitiliti]

Hi,

A friend of mine is quite worried about a potential delay repay prosecution with Southern.

They have claimed they this person has been researching claims to claim delay repay for on their annual season ticket, the total amount of claims was over 300 and in the last year was more than 100.

A majority of these have been legitimate claims but some have been to a stop further along than usual and set without really thinking.

What is the usual process for next steps here? Southern haven't laid out which claims feel suspicious or what an amount to settle / close this case might be.

Has anyone experienced this with Southern before? And do you have any advice on moving forwards?

Any recommended solicitors to help here?

It is a substantial number of claims.

However, when they say ‘doesn’t correlate with tap data’, does this mean your friend has recorded tap data for their daily commute which is at completely different times/locations to delay repay claims, or no tap data at all to corroborate claims?

If it’s a lack of tap data rather than different tap data, proving fraud by false representation beyond reasonable doubt in court would be extremely difficult for Southern given CCTV is mostly deleted within 30 days.

That said, your friend at least discussing the matter with an experienced solicitor as suggested above would be prudent.

 

[furlong]

The "usual process" you ask about that we've seen is the train company making an offer not to take the matter any further legally if all delay repay claims (irrespective of whether they were valid or not) are repaid.

We have also seen successful prosecutions leading to real jail time. Here is I think the most extreme example:

Leeds students jailed after claiming £140,000 on train refunds through delay 'loophole'

Li Liu and Wanqinq Yu created 16 fake identities to exploit the refund scheme

thetab.com

There is little doubt that large numbers of fraudulent Delay Repay claims can lead to having to spend time in jail.

I think immediate legal representation is essential to try to move your friend's case into the first category rather than the second.

 

[tatitiliti]

The "usual process" you ask about that we've seen is the train company making an offer not to take the matter any further legally if all delay repay claims (irrespective of whether they were valid or not) are repaid.

We have also seen successful prosecutions leading to real jail time. Here is I think the most extreme example:

Leeds students jailed after claiming £140,000 on train refunds through delay 'loophole'

Li Liu and Wanqinq Yu created 16 fake identities to exploit the refund scheme

thetab.com

There is little doubt that large numbers of fraudulent Delay Repay claims can lead to having to spend time in jail.

I think immediate legal representation is essential to try to move your friend's case into the first category rather than the second.

Of course jail is a possibility but this example was large-scale systematic fraud involving simultaneous delay repay and refunds across multiple TOCs running into the hundreds of thousands of pounds.

I think if OP’s friend hires a solicitor and is transparent and apologetic, the odds are probably in their favour for settling out of court by repaying (many of) the claims and TOC’s costs - but it could easily still end up in court.

 

[Belperpete]

I think if OP’s friend hires a solicitor and is transparent and apologetic, the odds are probably in their favour for settling out of court by repaying (many of) the claims and TOC’s costs - but it could easily still end up in court.

The friend certainly needs to be open with the solicitor, the solicitor will advise what to say to Southern. The solicitor can only advise properly if they know the full details.

However, when they say ‘doesn’t correlate with tap data’, does this mean your friend has recorded tap data for their daily commute which is at completely different times/locations to delay repay claims, or no tap data at all to corroborate claims?

If it’s a lack of tap data rather than different tap data, proving fraud by false representation beyond reasonable doubt in court would be extremely difficult for Southern given CCTV is mostly deleted within 30 days.

Southern aren't giving specific details, because they are hoping that the friend will give details that incriminate themself. Their recommendation to get legal counsel is probably a "frightener" - as others have said, Southern would need to have good evidence to prove that fraud had been committed. Only the friend can know how many (if any) of the claims are fraudulent, and what evidence Southern could have. For example, if they have claimed for a certain train, but tap data shows that they cannot possibly have used that train. It is vital that the solicitor be told if there could be such cases that Southern could use as evidence.