Potential East London improvement ideas?

[BritishGuy54]

I think it’s fair to say that while Newham and Greenwich have been getting a lot of connectivity recently, it’s disappointing to see the likes of Redbridge, Barking & Dagenham, Havering, and Bexley get…not as much attention, besides Barking Riverside and the Elizabeth Line.

That begs the question… how could better links be formed between these eastern boroughs? Be it realistic, or fantastical.

I can see a few options that look appealing in the future:

• Realistic-ish options.
  • Cross-river crossings between Dagenham/Havering and Bexley.
  • Elizabeth line extension to Gravesend via Dartford.
  • Beam Park to open on c2c services.
  • Castle Green to open on the Suffragette Line.
  • Dagenham East to regain c2c services.
  • DLR extension from Thamesmead to Abbey Wood.
• More… out-there options.
  • A new eastern section of the DLR, with Beckton as a hub? Maybe a Barking spur and beyond? Or a bolder Romford-Bexley section?
  • Or a new deep-level tube line? A Jubilee line branch from North Greenwich?
  • A Liberty line extension and widening to areas like Hainault in the northwest and Grays in the southeast? The track alignments are a problem…

 

[SynthD]

The first category can be split up into ideas in official plans (Elizabeth line, DLR, Beam Park, Castle Green), and others that you could explain why they are realistic. Dagenham East just had the land next to it on Yew Tree Avenue developed, so there isn’t room for further building to fund the extra c2c stop. Dagenham Heathway has nearly twice the usage.

A rail river crossing east of Thamesmead will seem more necessary as they redevelop the industrial areas into residential. The most demand will be in some unpredictable spot, such as the largest parcels of building in the 2030s. It will need a flyover like Barking Riverside, and work around the A13. Nowhere seems as geographically convenient as Barking.

What are the busiest orbital bus routes? Some of the major bus routes are shadowing the rail lines, others are feeders from areas that aren’t being made denser.

 

[SoloGemini]

Mildmay Line extension to Walthamstow (and possibly Chingford) with a rebuilt Hall Farm curve. Gives a much-needed rail connection between Stratford and Walthamstow, as the roads and buses between them are often over capacity

Mildmay Line Extension – Google My Maps

Hall Farm Curve Reopened

www.google.com

 

[Instinct04]

Mildmay Line extension to Walthamstow (and possibly Chingford) with a rebuilt Hall Farm curve. Gives a much-needed rail connection between Stratford and Walthamstow, as the roads and buses between them are often over capacity

Mildmay Line Extension – Google My Maps

Hall Farm Curve Reopened

www.google.com

A Mildmay line extension is very unlikely, as this would complicate the passenger operations on the North London line. Also anyone wanting Walthamstow or Chingford on the route would most likely use the Victoria Line.

Secondly trains would need to either use platforms 11 or 12 at Stratford, and these are pretty much occupied with the 4toh GA service and ECS movements.

Stratford to Walthamstow could work on its own with 2tph using a rebuilt Hall Farm Curve.

 

[Mr. SW]

If you're going to reinstate the Hall Farm Curve and run a service up to Chingford as part of the Overground, it would be probably better to split the Lea Valley Services into East side and West Side operations and terminate the East-siders at Stratford rather than running through as this is simpler. Ok, you need to change at Stratford but I don't think this would be the greatest of struggles with the Liz Line. Central, etc. Then all you would need then was a new name: suggest Coppermill Line for the East side, after a local feature.

 

[brad465]

Very pie in the sky, but maybe some sort of rail/light rail crossing between Slade Green/Dartford and Purfleet? Could be attractive for anyone who only uses the Dartford Crossing to go between Lakeside/the surrounding business parks and Dartford. I know the Lower Thames Crossing is happening, but all road projects have form for causing more congestion, not relieving it.

 

[BritishGuy54]

Very pie in the sky, but maybe some sort of rail/light rail crossing between Slade Green/Dartford and Purfleet? Could be attractive for anyone who only uses the Dartford Crossing to go between Lakeside/the surrounding business parks and Dartford. I know the Lower Thames Crossing is happening, but all road projects have form for causing more congestion, not relieving it.

I can see a c2c extension to Gravesend from Grays via Purfleet being a good choice.

It might give more attention to the branch through Dagenham, Rainham, and Purfleet.

 

[Bald Rick]

Mildmay Line extension to Walthamstow (and possibly Chingford) with a rebuilt Hall Farm curve. Gives a much-needed rail connection between Stratford and Walthamstow, as the roads and buses between them are often over capacity

Mildmay Line Extension – Google My Maps

Hall Farm Curve Reopened

www.google.com

How does that work at Stratford?

 

[Harpo]

Very pie in the sky, but maybe some sort of rail/light rail crossing between Slade Green/Dartford and Purfleet? Could be attractive for anyone who only uses the Dartford Crossing to go between Lakeside/the surrounding business parks and Dartford. I know the Lower Thames Crossing is happening, but all road projects have form for causing more congestion, not relieving it.

In the May edition of Modern Railways, the MD of C2C expresses a desire to use the Rainham (Essex) HS2 connection to run through services.

“I have spoken to High Speed 1 about it.” They weren’t keen, he admits. He highlights the freight chord linking HS1 with the national network at Rainham. The idea would be South Eastern trains could use Fenchurch Street as a diversionary route. “You’d have to invest in the infrastructure; you’d have to turn that freight line into a proper junction.”

Perhaps a through service from Gospel Oak, or maybe Stansted via the T&H/7 Sisters would be a better use?

https://www.modernrailways.com/article/heart-its-community

 

[cle]

In the May edition of Modern Railways, the MD of C2C expresses a desire to use the Rainham (Essex) HS2 connection to run through services.

Perhaps a through service from Gospel Oak, or maybe Stansted via the T&H/7 Sisters would be a better use?

https://www.modernrailways.com/article/heart-its-community

That's interesting. You could also have Rainham / Southend to Stratford and St Pancras, but Kent-Fenchurch St could be quite interesting too, especially with the calls at West Ham etc.

I imagine it is highly unlikely they would want to mingle these. Especially with future HS1 growth of new operators... and presumably a desire for more freight on both routes. But it's an interesting one to speculate on, even if some peak direct services.

And maybe they could then redeploy some Cannon St services to other destinations... ? Fenchurch St is pretty full at the peaks. St Pancras Kent aren't getting more Eurostar platforms any time soon either.

 

[jayah]

That's interesting. You could also have Rainham / Southend to Stratford and St Pancras, but Kent-Fenchurch St could be quite interesting too, especially with the calls at West Ham etc.

I imagine it is highly unlikely they would want to mingle these. Especially with future HS1 growth of new operators... and presumably a desire for more freight on both routes. But it's an interesting one to speculate on, even if some peak direct services.

And maybe they could then redeploy some Cannon St services to other destinations... ? Fenchurch St is pretty full at the peaks. St Pancras Kent aren't getting more Eurostar platforms any time soon either.

I am not convinced by the premises of great demand for travel across the river. If you are importing anything from Dover to Essex, it must go that way, as well as anybody driving from Gatwick to anywhere North East of London.

If you wanted to improve connectivity, Femchurch Street is the weak link with all these shuffles onto DLR and LUL contrived to avoiding ending up there with no onward connections.

There are a lot of possibilities if money was no object, but the other dead end of Moorgate is less than a mile away and I rather like the idea of just smashing a tunnel between and joining them up.

 

[Instinct04]

I am not convinced by the premises of great demand for travel across the river. If you are importing anything from Dover to Essex, it must go that way, as well as anybody driving from Gatwick to anywhere North East of London.

If you wanted to improve connectivity, Femchurch Street is the weak link with all these shuffles onto DLR and LUL contrived to avoiding ending up there with no onward connections.

There are a lot of possibilities if money was no object, but the other dead end of Moorgate is less than a mile away and I rather like the idea of just smashing a tunnel between and joining them up.

You cannot extend at Moorgate because of space, no?

 

[Harpo]

If you wanted to improve connectivity, Femchurch Street is the weak link with all these shuffles onto DLR and LUL contrived to avoiding ending up there with no onward connections.

Fenchurch St is useless unless you want to be in the City area. It’s best connectivity is half a mile away at Bank. C2C missed out hugely in not having a station on the Elizabeth Line which passes in tunnels below it.

A major rework of the SSL between Aldgate and Tower Hill would help but is never going to happen.

 

[Recessio]

Fenchurch St is useless unless you want to be in the City area. It’s best connectivity is half a mile away at Bank. C2C missed out hugely in not having a station on the Elizabeth Line which passes in tunnels below it.

A major rework of the SSL between Aldgate and Tower Hill would help but is never going to happen.

C2C already has interchange with DLR, Hammersmith & City, District, Jubilee, Windrush, Suffragette - while it would have been nice, I'm not sure an Elizabeth Line connection is truly critical, especially given the journey time penalty and cost an additional EL station at say Limehouse would have caused.

 

[JonathanH]

C2C already has interchange with DLR, Hammersmith & City, District, Jubilee, Windrush, Suffragette - while it would have been nice, I'm not sure an Elizabeth Line connection is truly critical, especially given the journey time penalty and cost an additional EL station at say Limehouse would have caused.

Presumably there is some "c2c land" - West Ham - Whitechapel - EL flow.

 

[Harpo]

C2C already has interchange with DLR, Hammersmith & City, District, Jubilee, Windrush, Suffragette - while it would have been nice, I'm not sure an Elizabeth Line connection is truly critical, especially given the journey time penalty and cost an additional EL station at say Limehouse would have caused.

C2C’s connectivity is all the same, to other bits of London that are fine for a commuter railway moving people to workplaces, but nothing that particularly helps speed up journeys across or beyond London.

 

[Farnborough]

Mildmay Line extension to Walthamstow (and possibly Chingford) with a rebuilt Hall Farm curve. Gives a much-needed rail connection between Stratford and Walthamstow, as the roads and buses between them are often over capacity

Mildmay Line Extension – Google My Maps

Hall Farm Curve Reopened

www.google.com

So essentially, tagging the Greater Anglia service from Stratford onto the end of the Mildmay? I don't see how that helps.

There is some merit in those services (esp. Meridian Water), and the similar stoppers from Liverpool Street (Broxbourne, Hertford East) moving to the Overground in the same way as the Great Northern inners - they are, after all, earmarked for CrossRail 2

 

[JonathanH]

There is some merit in those services, and the similar stoppers from Liverpool Street (Broxbourne, Hertford East) moving to the Overground in the same way as the Great Northern inners.

What changes / improvements could that bring on a congested railway? There is no likelihood of being able to take the Cambridge and Stansted trains off the route, and the way the stops are set up between the different services in the peaks is better with it being an all GBR / Greater Anglia operation.

 

[Instinct04]

What changes / improvements could that bring on a congested railway? There is no likelihood of being able to take the Cambridge and Stansted trains off the route, and the way the stops are set up between the different services in the peaks is better with it being an all GBR / Greater Anglia operation.

There is no point in TFL taking over the Hertford/Bishops Stortford/Meridian Water stoppers, they would not be able to increase the frequency beyond what it is already.

All these stoppers are at the mercy of the Lord and Saviour that is the Stansted Express..

 

[Farnborough]

What changes / improvements could that bring on a congested railway? There is no likelihood of being able to take the Cambridge and Stansted trains off the route, and the way the stops are set up between the different services in the peaks is better with it being an all GBR / Greater Anglia operation.

Given that pathing will be coordinated by DfT/ORR, it doesn't matter who operates which trains under which branding.

Thus having a common brand (and brand standards) for the London overground (small O deliberate) stopping services makes more sense to me than having disparate operators - the London Overground brand is increasingly well known, whilst the stopping services are mostly within London, and certainly not Anglian!

The separation of the Great Northern inners (to Overground) and Eastern main-line inners (to Elizabeth Line) leaving the outers have shown that this works!

 

[JonathanH]

The separation of the Great Northern inners (to Overground) and Eastern main-line inners (to Elizabeth Line) leaving the outers have shown that this works!

Yes, obviously. My point is that segregation of the service isn't as clear cut in the instance of the West Anglia route, as a look at peak time calling patterns would indicate.