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Using season ticket with an itinerary

walkingsophie

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I am considering using a season ticket with a roundabout route. What would be the best way to get an itinerary for the route to ensure I follow the NRCoT? Note that the NR website does not show the route with the specific trains I intend to use due to being only able to set one via point.
 
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Kilopylae

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The cynical answer is that if the NRCoT replaces the Routeing Guide with the NRE engine then the limit of one via point is now just a limit on the valid routes you can generate. The pragmatic answer is probably to generate an itinerary with Trainsplit and take a screenshot?
 

redreni

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Might another pragmatic answer be to generate more than one itinerary on NRE and pull out whichever is most appropriate if accused of being off route?

E.g. if somebody wanted to use a Southampton to London season ticket via both Portsmouth and Houslow, NRE would happily do an itinerary via Portsmouth or an itinerary via Hounslow, just not an itinerary via both Portsmouth and Hounslow.
 

Tetchytyke

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You don’t have to use NRE, you just need to have an itinerary issued by an accredited retailer. Some allow more than one via point.

But, with respect, I’d suggest you consider whether the juice is worth the squeeze, given your recent experience with SWR. Nothing wrong with using good value tickets, just consider the pros and the cons.
 

Kilopylae

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You don’t have to use NRE, you just need to have an itinerary issued by an accredited retailer.
The itinerary has to one presented "in connection with the purchase of a Ticket". The lawyers here may tell me otherwise, but I would assume this means, strictly speaking, that one can only rely on an itinerary presented by an accredited retailer if one has bought the corresponding ticket. I don't know if one can rely on the itinerary Trainsplit shows for a ticket one hasn't bought.
 

alistairlees

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The itinerary has to one presented "in connection with the purchase of a Ticket". The lawyers here may tell me otherwise, but I would assume this means, strictly speaking, that one can only rely on an itinerary presented by an accredited retailer if one has bought the corresponding ticket. I don't know if one can rely on the itinerary Trainsplit shows for a ticket one hasn't bought.
So if you buy a ticket with an itinerary, then the itineraries are changed because of engineering works / easements, the ticket you bought is no longer valid (though the same one bought later is)? I don’t think they would stand up to scrutiny.
 

Tetchytyke

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The itinerary has to one presented "in connection with the purchase of a Ticket".
Depends how you read it.

The exact wording is:
13.1.2 as shown on the itinerary presented by the journey planner on www.nationalrail.co.uk or from a Licensed Retailer in connection with the purchase of a Ticket and/or including the relevant restrictions applying to that Ticket.

As it was drafted by a cretin, it is just word soup. Therefore, in my opinion, one would be able to make a coherent argument as to any number of interpretations.

Especially as the lack of commas mean that the bit referring to the purchase of a ticket also actually applies to the NRE planner, which means if you go back to the NRE planner later it’s also not valid. Which is clearly a nonsense.

It also says a ticket, not the ticket.
 

redreni

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The itinerary has to one presented "in connection with the purchase of a Ticket". The lawyers here may tell me otherwise, but I would assume this means, strictly speaking, that one can only rely on an itinerary presented by an accredited retailer if one has bought the corresponding ticket. I don't know if one can rely on the itinerary Trainsplit shows for a ticket one hasn't bought.
The way the various clauses of that muddled sentence in the NRCoT relate to each other is up for debate. If it means anything at all, it has to apply to itineraries presented by an accredited retailer (the only alternative interpretation being that it applies both to itineraries presented by NRE and to those presented by an accredited retailer, but we can rule that out because you can't purchase a ticket from NRE).

Either way, the proviso that the itinerary must be presented "in connection with the purchase of a ticket" is followed immediately by the words "and/or including the relevant restrictions applying to
that Ticket."

You could argue, therefore, that an itinerary from TrainSplit that is presented in a form that includes the relevant restrictions applying to the ticket TrainSplit is offering to sell you (or one of them), fulfils the condition of being "an itinerary [...]
from a Licensed Retailer in connection with the
purchase of a Ticket and/or including the relevant restrictions applying to that Ticket" and thereby validates the route, even if you didn't buy the ticket from them.
 
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Mixing Deck used to allow you to view itineraries as part of the season ticket purchase process rather than just prices, do any retailers still offer season tickets via Mixing Deck?
 

HandyHat

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If this is in SWR land then you may want to consider loading the season ticket onto a touch smartcard and then also enabling Tap2Go on the same smartcard.

This removes any chance of staff confrontation (you are always travelling on the validity of Tap2Go) and I have found that even for journeys that are illogical, the back end system used by Tap2Go follows the Routeing Guide and understands that they are valid, and does not charge extra for them.

Of course you may want to test this yourself first with a short (e.g. 7 day) season ticket - you can always disable Tap2Go afterwards.
 

Kilopylae

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As it was drafted by a cretin, it is just word soup. Therefore, in my opinion, one would be able to make a coherent argument as to any number of interpretations.
The way the various clauses of that muddled sentence in the NRCoT relate to each other is up for debate. If it means anything at all,
We can all agree on this.

I parsed the sentence thus: {as shown on: [the itinerary presented by the journey planner on www.nationalrail.co.uk] or [from a Licensed Retailer in connection with the purchase of a Ticket] }.

So if you buy a ticket with an itinerary, then the itineraries are changed because of engineering works / easements, the ticket you bought is no longer valid (though the same one bought later is)? I don’t think they would stand up to scrutiny.
I think the strict position would be that it's valid for any routes you could generate from NRE at the time when you bought it, but not for any routes that only subsequently became available, but in practice, you could use it for those too.
 

bananas

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loading the season ticket onto a touch smartcard
I've been advised against this because smart card usage data is more easily analysed by ToCs and they might decide to attempt to prosecute you for a valid loophole fare, or simply close your loophole. Of course if a paper ticket doesn't work the barriers it may be worthwhile anyway.
 

redreni

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We can all agree on this.

I parsed the sentence thus: {as shown on: [the itinerary presented by the journey planner on www.nationalrail.co.uk] or [from a Licensed Retailer in connection with the purchase of a Ticket] }.
How do you parse 13.1.2 in its entirety? It surely must be either:
as shown on: {an itinerary presented by the journey planner on
www.nationalrail.co.uk} or {from a Licensed Retailer [in connection with the purchase of a Ticket] and/or [including the relevant restrictions applying to that Ticket.]}
Which sort of makes sense, if you ignore that itineraries themselves never show ticket restrictions, albeit a good retailer will present that information somewhere prior to and at the point of purchase.
as shown on: {an itinerary presented by the journey planner on
www.nationalrail.co.uk} or {from a Licensed Retailer in connection with the purchase of a Ticket} and/or {including the relevant restrictions applying to that Ticket.}
Which doesn't make grammatical or logical sense.

I don't think there is an interpretation that makes grammatical and logical sense and relates to the way itineraries are actually presented, is there?

As an attempt at clarification, I'm unimpressed. And, predictably, I was told by a guard on Saturday morning that "we don't go by itineraries".
 

Swedenorer

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Well to take an origin and destination out of the air say Upper Halliford and Hinchley Wood for example. Southern's site offers two weeklies one at £49.70 valid only up to and including London zones 4-6 and another any permitted at £62.60. What you make of the latter is up to you. But it will not generate an itinerary neither are you permitted to use via points in the planner. So you are buying a ticket without an itinerary as one cannot be produced in association with the ticket. Chancing your arm beyond Clapham Junction would be I think unwise with this fare. In the very old days when staff simply referred to the map they would have said you were doubling back very definitely.
 

Kilopylae

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I don't think there is an interpretation that makes grammatical and logical sense and relates to the way itineraries are actually presented, is there?
No. Perhaps it's a very cack-handed attempt to advise that restriction text printed on the ticket - "Not valid via Reading" etc - overrides itineraries....? So if you're offered an itinerary via London but the ticket says not valid via London, you mustn't use the ticket in accordance with the itinerary. I have no idea what "and/or" is supposed to convey in this context.

Or perhaps it has nothing to do with conflicts and is meant to be about tickets bought from a machine without an accompanying itinerary - in these cases you must instead obey any restrictions.
 

Swedenorer

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13.1.2 as shown on the itinerary presented by the journey planner on www.nationalrail.co.uk or from a Licensed Retailer in connection with the purchase of a Ticket and/or including the relevant restrictions applying to that Ticket.

If you take restrictions to mean say time of travel or operator, which is how I read it to be honest, it makes complete sense. I've always assumed the railway used 'restrictions' in that sense. In theory you start with an anytime single any permitted and then restrict its use in return for a cheaper fare.
 

redreni

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No. Perhaps it's a very cack-handed attempt to advise that restriction text printed on the ticket - "Not valid via Reading" etc - overrides itineraries....? So if you're offered an itinerary via London but the ticket says not valid via London, you mustn't use the ticket in accordance with the itinerary.
If it means to say that, it fails to say it. And if they did write that in the NRCoT then it would surely be unenforceable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

13.1.2 as shown on the itinerary presented by the journey planner on www.nationalrail.co.uk or from a Licensed Retailer in connection with the purchase of a Ticket and/or including the relevant restrictions applying to that Ticket.

If you take restrictions to mean say time of travel or operator, which is how I read it to be honest, it makes complete sense. I've always assumed the railway used 'restrictions' in that sense.
But by putting an and/or immediately after a condition that would otherwise impose a condition on the right to travel in accordance with an itinerary, the condition (from a licensed retailer in connection with the purchase of a ticket) ceases to be absolute, because you can now comply with the clause as a whole if the itinerary meets whatever condition comes after the and/or.

You can't make an entitlement subject to a further condition by writing 'and/or' and then setting out the further condition. All you're doing is expanding the entitlement to a new, alternative situation in which the conditions previously set out in which the entitlement applies aren't met.

And anyway, how can time restrictions have anything to do with whether I'm on a valid route or not? If I am travelling on an off-peak ticket in breach of a time restriction, the way that is to be dealt with is different if I am on a valid route compared to if I am off-route. It' would be pure confusion to conflate complying with or failing to comply with a time restriction with being on or not being on a valid route. This clause is about the routes you may use.
 
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I read it as:
as shown on the itinerary ([presented by the journey planner on www.nationalrail.co.uk] OR [from a Licensed Retailer]) AND ([in connection with the purchase of a Ticket] AND/OR [including the relevant restrictions applying to that Ticket]).

So you need to be using the itinerary presented by the journey planner on www.nationalrail.co.uk or from a licensed retailer, and that use must either be in connection with the purchase of a ticket and/or including the restrictions applying to the ticket.

This would seem to fit the bill with consumer law as well, because it's saying that the itinerary used in connection with the purchase of the ticket is valid even without taking into account the restrictions applying to the ticket (which the journey planner should do), but if your use of the journey planner is not in connection with the purchase of a ticket the journey planner must include the relevant restrictions applying to that ticket.

Does that make sense?
 

tumbledown

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Has "in connection with the purchase of a ticket" been tested? It seems reasonable to me to include "for information purposes before buying a ticket from a ticket office".
 

redreni

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I read it as:
as shown on the itinerary ([presented by the journey planner on www.nationalrail.co.uk] OR [from a Licensed Retailer]) AND ([in connection with the purchase of a Ticket] AND/OR [including the relevant restrictions applying to that Ticket]).

So you need to be using the itinerary presented by the journey planner on www.nationalrail.co.uk or from a licensed retailer, and that use must either be in connection with the purchase of a ticket and/or including the restrictions applying to the ticket.

This would seem to fit the bill with consumer law as well, because it's saying that the itinerary used in connection with the purchase of the ticket is valid even without taking into account the restrictions applying to the ticket (which the journey planner should do), but if your use of the journey planner is not in connection with the purchase of a ticket the journey planner must include the relevant restrictions applying to that ticket.

Does that make sense?
Not to my mind, no. The journey planner takes into account restrictions applying to tickets before offering a ticket in connection with an itinerary. It doesn't do so only when the user purchases a ticket.

As I say, I don't accept that time restrictions are relevant to routeing in any case. Nor are TOC restrictions, and it's generally accepted (on here, at least) that itineraries trump TOC restrictions on tickets. There's a thread somewhere about TPE issuing 'TPE & connections' tickets on itineraries using, for example, Avanti and Northern only. It's just valid in accordance with the itinerary no matter what the NRCoT says, as I understand it.

Routeing restrictions are relevant to routeing, but again, it is extremely difficult to see how they could override an itinerary.

All the bit about "including the relevant restrictions applying to the ticket" does is make it so that an itinerary from a licensed retailer that includes such restrictions can be relied on as evidence of the validity of a route even if it is not in connection with the purchase of a ticket. If that's not what RDG intended it to mean then they should amend it.
 

Tetchytyke

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I've been advised against this because smart card usage data is more easily analysed by ToCs and they might decide to attempt to prosecute you for a valid loophole fare, or simply close your loophole.
The TOCs would struggle to use smartcard data to prosecute.

There’s more risk an advantageous routeing being closed if a ticket inspector stops you and completes a travel irregularity report. But it’s always a risk with any good value ticket.

I read it as:
as shown on the itinerary ([presented by the journey planner on www.nationalrail.co.uk] OR [from a Licensed Retailer]) AND ([in connection with the purchase of a Ticket] AND/OR [including the relevant restrictions applying to that Ticket]).
That’s not the only way of reading it though. And I’d disagree with that interpretation because of the lack of commas: there should be a comma after the URL if it was intended to be separate items in a list. The “connection with the purchase of a ticket” therefore, in my interpretation, also applies to itineraries generated by NRE. Even though NRE don’t sell tickets.

Clearly the brains trust at RDG have never read the book Eats Shoots and Leaves.

I think we can all agree that the current NRCoT was written by a halfwit.
 

Deerfold

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I think we can all agree that the current NRCoT was written by a halfwit.
I don't think there's evidence it was only written by one person.

More surprising is the lack of evidence it was written by competent lawyers or contract experts.
 

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